5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
  

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
  

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
================

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[Breadandwine]

Hi stripey, bloody annoying isn't it?

I come home tell my H, and he says I've got to agree I think it's bloody stupid this diet your on. I said it's a lifestyle change and I'm doing it permantly. (Don't think he knew as he knows nothing about it) he then tells me it's utter ridiculous.

I'm so angry, as I say he knows nothing about it as he's never asked or showed any interest he couldn't tell you what it's even called...I'm hopping mad at him.

Tell him there's a bloke on the Mumsnet threads who has lost 24lbs on 5:2, can do 1200 press ups in an hour (ask him how many he can do!) and is almost 79. (And, BTW, he's a vegan to boot!)

[Emison]

Hi! I've just popped over from the inspirational thread, my name was User471. TBH the only people who know that I'm eating 5:2 are my husband and daughter. I'm on Carbimazole and Thyroxine and it makes it so difficult to lose weight. Everyone knew that I was on a constant diet but not losing weight and even gaining it. I'm hoping just to keep this quiet and lose half a pound to one pound a week. I've lost 7 pounds so far in 4 weeks so I'm very happy

[annielostit]

stripey, Sometimes people just don't get it irt 5:2. Unless they've seen the info read the books & seen the TV programme shouldn't comment. My dh doesn't get it but really he's turning into a space hopper & should get it.
The nhs in Wales, read from a script. A spotty young nurse said fruit & carbs doesn't give insulin spikes, FD are not sustainable and there are no proven benefits from the whole process.
Rerun the horizon programme I say and force the country to watch

[Overtiredbackagain]

I did 5:2 a couple of years ago before I fell pg with DC3, I lost a stone in 2 months and felt incredible. Unfortunately I've struggled since having DD last summer, but I need to get focussed. I feel bloated and tired all the time, and have two stone to lose.

I am starting by reducing my carb (and wine!) intake for the next few days and my first FD will be Monday.

My OH loves his food but has also gained weight and whilst he would never be able to fast, he does well with restricted carbs, so on my fast days (I only have an evening meal) I will do him a larger portion of what I have.

[stripeyzebra32]

Thanks all. I read out the post BCF has in the op and he's changed his mind. He agreed that he knew nothing about it. He now says it sounds good now I've explained it.

I also told him it's good for me as ending a diet I never stay that way and within a week I'm gaining again.

I suppose to someone who knows nothing who sees me having meal replacement sachets and you tell them I'm doing it forever may become a bit concerned about it.

I never watched the original program so I'm going to look later if I can find it on YouTube.

[stripeyzebra32]

I've just been looking at my weight log and I look at per week and total loss but I've just done the maths.

Been on 5:2 a month now (I thought it was longer I must admit) and in those 4 weeks I've lost 7lbs.

I'm really suprised by that that seems a lot for me especially as I've done this back to back with low carb and lost 2stone 3 before starting this.

I am amazed it's really working and I feel so much better for it.

[annielostit]

There's a link for horizon stripey, on the op.

[Emison]

My second FD of the week was yesterday so I weighed myself today. I have lost another pound bringing my total loss to 8 lbs. I'm so happy!

[Clearskies99]

Welcome all newcomers and returners - this thread is a good place to be!

Glad he gets it now stripey

Well done emison great SV!

Still a bit up on my pre-holiday weight (as I overindulged the second week) but as I'm totally back into 5:2 after 1 week off piste I know it'll go.

The 'no snacking ever' chant at the end of last thread TIP will stay with me as I know it's really helping me and most days it is now my norm. Quite religious about it in fact, I often brush my teeth after every meal as a marker/reminder that that's it til the next meal. I also like your description of

a method of increasing your healthy lifespan that just happens to bring weight into the correct range

Yes ! yes! yes!

And yes to whoever posted up thread, saving money on food bills here too - 2 FDs per week and just generally eating MUCH MUCH MUCH less!

Have a successful FD Thursday fasters and a healthy NFD non-fasters

[jingscrivvens]

Emison and Stripey great SVs!

And Stripey, it does make it harder when people around you aren't supportive, you are doing great and once you've lost the amount of weight that you want to that will be the greatest two finger salute to them.

On my mini FD today, just had a M&S salmon protein pot - great for a light lunch (156 cals) although haven't anything in for tea. I hate shopping for food after work, more likely to buy something comforting esp as fasting still makes me cold!

[CeciledeVolanges]

I'm having a little problem. On FDs I try to do normal exercise and feel shaky and dizzy. Is this normal and how should I get around it? Does it go away? It is making me worry about fasting...

[BigChocFrenzy]

Cecile Some people need to get 100% adapted to fasting (can take a couple of months) before they can do more than a walk.
Most people are ok with up to 60 mins hard training on FDs.
However, if you are really training intensively, say at a high level or for a competitive event, I recommend keeping the FDs as your 2 rest days for the week.

Also, medium intensity cardio may be especially tough, because you are emptying glycogen stores.
On FDs, I recommend HIIT and lifting.
So, e.g. leave long (>45 mins) runs or swimming sessions for NFDs. Sprint intervals are great.

[BigChocFrenzy]

btw, I train 5-6 days per week - heavy lifting, metabloic lifting workout, HIIT sprints, spin, XCo - plus my short daily bike to work.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome & congrats on your DV, Emison Excellent progress
5:2 often works when "ordinary diets" fail.
Fasting can correct some metabolic issues, especially relating to insulin (which can cause conditions like PCOS) and related issues with pre / menopause

[CeciledeVolanges]

That does explain it - I wouldn't say I do HIIT but I cycle fairly quickly to work (it's about an hour's round trip) and it is anything on top of that which feels like a lot. In particular I tried to do a high intensity class after getting off the bike and I started seeing black spots!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Stripey Family & friends may be less worried if you move from "sachets" to proper food on FDs,
My usual FD plan is: salmon or steak salad as main meal at lunch, with plain kefir after evening training.
Basically, good quality protein with masses of veg, while other family members add starches & sauce

e.g. roast dinner:
You have lean meat, horseradish / mint sauce, portions of different veg like peas, carrots, broccoli, cabbage
Family add Yorkshires, potatoes, parsnips,mgravy (plus cauli cheese at my house !)

[CeciledeVolanges]

That does explain it - I wouldn't say I do HIIT but I cycle fairly quickly to work (it's about an hour's round trip) and it is anything on top of that which feels like a lot. In particular I tried to do a high intensity class after getting off the bike and I started seeing black spots!

[glasshalfemp]

Well I went to lunch just now and took your advice and had hot meze starters instead of main meal and couldn't finish it. It was really hard not having dessert. Really hard. Had a few spoonfuls of my Childrens though. I also refused the bread basket. Which I hav NEVER done. I am excited that I have lost weight already on the scales but aware that this is just water. Is that right? So FDs are over for the week so the scales will bounce back (which I am not happy about) when I next weigh in. Does anyone manage to keep the post FD weight until the Nxt FD (which will be in four days for me)? When can you actually count the weight loss as true fat loss rather water?

[glasshalfemp]

I should add that I have done a body blast class (lots of jumping squats etc). One hour body weight training (alone) and a spin class this week and have an hour with a PT booked tommorow to do strength training.

[BigChocFrenzy]

GlassHalf Weight lost on the first 2 weeks may include a few lb water, but should also include some bodyfat.
If you are a daily weigher, your weight graph will typically look zig-zag, but with a downward trend over the weeks.

To monitor_ progress_
I recommend weighing after FD2 under identical conditions weekly:

Naked, 1st thing in the morning after loo but before drinking / eating anything, same scales in identical position on a level, hard surface (not carpet)

Switch on scales, wait 3 secs, then step on (no jumping) and don't shift position or lean in any direction.
Check batteries full.

Also, monitor inches - at least waist & hips - say every 4 weeks.
You may notice clothes soon get looser, which means lost fat.

btw, weight - even without sieting - can typically vary a few lb due to undigested food, retained watsr from a very carby day, hormonal swings, totm, water tetained for muscle repair after boosting exercise .....
SpThat's why I recommend looking at the trend over at least 2 weeks, because a loss of 1-2 lb one week can be hidden by a temporary blip.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Cecile Your bike journey sounds quite enough exercise for FDs.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Muscles rebuild during restdays, btw, so you need those 2 FDs, maybe even taking it more slowly on the bike ride, if you find you get tired on FDsor generally
IF is analagous to HIIT - both use hormesis, i.e. brief periods of high load to build resilience - so for exercisers there is a sweet spot for total load over the week, to allow sufficient recovery time.

[CeciledeVolanges]

Got it - so in the future I will synchronise meal planning, exercise planning and shopping planning :)

[glasshalfemp]

Thanks. I'll get the tape measure out. I like to weigh daily. Bad habit. Is there a benefit to doing 4:3 if you find NFDs hard. Or should I add a mini fast instead. I am a serial snacker and have been since an undergrad (many moons ago) and the pressure of having three meals a day instead sounds the most challenging part of this WOE.

[Clearskies99]

If it's any help for you in starting your 5:2 journey glasshalf I had a big tendancy to be a serial snacker/grazer + comfort eating + generally overeating + stress + PMT then menopause carb cravings got me very very overweight (BMI 40).

Since Jan have lost over 50lbs and am heading slowly but surely back to a healthy BMI. The two things that have helped the most combined with the FDS are NO SNACKING and eating healthily on NFDs. Some days I lapse a bit into old habits but I can honestly say that no snacking feels really good as a WOE. Food is at meals, maybe with a 'treat' of something sweet at end of meal but in between I give my body a break from all food and just drink water. It's taken time to unlearn the old habit as with all habits. What's helped alot too is stabilising my blood sugar level by having much much less sugary stuff and complex carbs as the norm so I don't generally get carb/sugar/junk cravings now.... EXCEPT recently when after a few weeks effortlessly doing B2BSs AND 4:3 I crashed into huge carb cravings and it took a good few weeks to settle back into 5:2 and losing weight slowly but surely again.

So, bit of a lengthy ramble to say I'd recommend 5:2, not extra FDs, work on sorting out what and how much you eat on NFDs and developping the new habit of no snacking. If you are eating out alot you may also be getting the munchies from having generally more salty food than if cooking from scratch at home. Thirst can get mistaken for hunger. Are you drinking lots of water?

Hope something in there's helpful