5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
  

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
  

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
================

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done on your progress, Eagle and your cunning exercise regime

[grannygroan]

Thanks for the very sensible advice BigChoc.

I'll stick to 14:10 for now as you suggest and then a week of 16:8 before introducing FDs.

Cutting out all the sugary crap which has made its way into my diet will probably be the biggest challenge for me - I'm an all or nothing person when it comes to refined sugar, so I will need to cut it out altogether.

Eagle - wow! What a motivational post. And 10.5lb baby - ouch!

[HalloweenQueen1]

Well managed to keep on the straight and narrow for my FD yesterday (520 cals) took your advice Silverbeetle & breadandwine didn't have any of my own baking (kept a bun for today, which I just had with lunch yum yum) and when I did feel like just giving in after I ate my dinner yesterday evening I set the timer and I actually forgot all about it!! So great tips there. Well done on the weight loss Silver that's fantastic I've decided I'm going to only weigh myself twice a month, just to keep an eye on it. So I weighed this morning and have 6lbs off, really happy it's going the right direction, that's a total of 1stone and 7lbs in 5/6 weeks . Hey Granny good to see you back, hope you get rid of the lurgy and are fighting fit again, and well done on the half marathon I'm hoping to return to running again soon I miss it.
Silver don't envy you being without your kitchen but it'll be all worth it when you have a lovely new kitchen- what about healthy ready meals, soups that you can bung in the microwave?? Salads don't need to much prep if you have a space to do them the night before and leave in fridge for the next day?? Hope it doesn't take too long thanks for info on sleep BigChoc, I'm definitely guilty of staying up when I should be in bed but since upping my exercise I can't keep my eyes open past 9!!

[SilentBiscuits]

Eagle you're amazing, trying to fit in exercise and fasting with two small children. I already posted about how small children were my downfall last time. Hats off to you.

Very glad yesterday's fast is over as it was such hard work!

[CrepeDeChineWag]

Shitting hell halloween a sone and a half in 5/6 weeks? That's amazing. You must be slipping out of your trousers Great news!

I haven't weighed in again yet but have done some measurements and have lost a bit more from boobs, belly and hips so that's good. I'm definately seeing a difference in the mirror/clothes now. Am on a FD and looking forward to my soup sometime soon and a weekend of mindful eating. I've got cakes to make for Halloween on Monday so hopefully will be able to resist (you lot have set the bar now!) as it'll be a FD. Must save myself a cake for Tuesday

[Ta1kinpeece]

A swift jump in to say
THANKYOU
to the wonderful
bigchoc who keeps these threads running

[Ta1kinpeece]

But this is where it gets interesting....

back in 2012 when I started 5:2 the
NO SNACKING
mantra made sense very quick

[Ta1kinpeece]

This week I took my cats to the vet for their boosters
and the vet said to me
NO SNACKING
no shit sherlock
for my pet cats, fasting is the order of the day

[Ta1kinpeece]

The vet said to think of the size of their meal against the size of their stomach (in a cat, think large walnut)
and to reduce the meal to that size

[Ta1kinpeece]

which amused me greatly as I've been ranting about the same to humans for years but not inflicted it on my pets ...

[BigChocFrenzy]

Brilliant achievement, Halloween
Congratulations on that SV in such a short time.

Sounds like you are losing inches too, Crepe

[BigChocFrenzy]

Hi tip I missed you !
< I've posted often that it was tip who first discovered how important no snacking is.
She was the one who caused me to dig into the science of why this is so >

Logical that snacking doesn't suit cats, or dogs either.

We need to consider how humans and animals have evolved over millions of years and their WOE over that time:

Ruminants / herbivores have tended to spend a lot of their time grazing to get sufficient fuel - grass is far less energy dense than beef.

However, our human ancestors (omnivores) amd those of our carnivorous pets mostly ate 1-3 times per day.
Bad hunts / famines meant they didn't eat every day, which is why we cope well with short fasts.

Snacks only arrived 35 -40 years ago.

Our bodies / genes have not had long enough to evolve to thrive on snacks.
Or on what Michael Palin calls "food-like substances", aka junk food & drink.

[BigChocFrenzy]

I thought of you, tip when I posted upthread about Dr Jason Fung's research (into treatment for his patients with kidney problems from T2)
IF was the only way he found to increase the "set point weight" and hence avoid regain longterm.

He also concludes:
"in the development of obesity, the increase in meals is almost twice as important as the change in diet."

Snacks have caused a fundamental change for snackers:
Each 24 hour day is now insulin-dominant instead of fasting-dominant

[HalloweenQueen1]

Lol Crepe 'shitting hell' made me laugh but yep 2 pairs of jeans are now being held in place by being pinned at the waist and well done on your own inches, great feeling when you find the clothes feeling looser good luck with the fasting & baking on Monday, I did find it difficult but jeez did I enjoy my little cake the next day, FD made it taste all the better. Thanks Bigchoc your information posts are great and definitely help reaffirm for me this isn't a diet but a better healthy way of living. Even my dh, who isn't a 5:2er has started adhering to the No Snacking rule now too have a nice weekend fasters

[BigChocFrenzy]

I just posted how to do squats safely, with diagram, on the 5:2 / IF ExerciseThread3
Advice & support there for all fitness levels and exercise types.

[CrepeDeChineWag]

Yes! I am definitely enjoying food more on my non fast days. I often used to find myself in the past half way through something and think, this isn't even particularly nice why am I eating it? and then carry on! Even after only (nearly) 6 weeks now I'm more likely to just stop eating something if it's not living up to expectations.

Interesting stuff about snacking. I often feel guilty with regards to my daughter now who expects snacks between meals because at the time it was considered the 'right' thing to do. She's not overweight but I do worry that I have set her up with some bad habits. I do try to keep the snacks healthy most of the time but even so

[EagleRay]

Crepe I think it's instilled into us from early on that children 'must' have snacks, and there's a whole industry built around it, especially for younger children.

We have to be a bit careful with DD1 as she has a high bmi which is probably down to a genetic condition. And it's likely she will grow up looking very different physically to DD2, and that's going to be a challenge to manage!

DP has realised today that he's now 7kg heavier than he wants to be (holiday didn't help). What's interesting is that despite his apparent intelligence and knowledge, he's incapable of doing anything about it. The only time he successfully lost weight was when he was seriously ill. He seems to find rules-based systems too much to cope with and can't bear to follow instructions (must have been a delight to teach ). I keep telling him to suck it up, stop overeating, stop drinking so much, get some goals and get on with it and he just looks like this

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well, when I grew up, eating between meals was frowned on as a bad habit for everyone.
Even as a child, I ate 3 meals per day, no snacks.
Treats were evey few months, daily.
We knew no different - only 3 TV channels and only 1 with ads.

However, that was also before commercial snacks, ready meals, fast food, takeaways etc existed; even supermarkets arrived only in my teens.
Crisps were only ready salted, just 3 flavours of ice cream, no sweet muffins or giant cookies, no burger joints, no pizza..

Big Food invented snacks and junk in about 1980, to make enormous profits.
I think they invented mass obesity then too.

[BigChocFrenzy]

treats NOT daily

[BigChocFrenzy]

I'm still fighting with ios 10.1 - it keeps bringing up,strange windows while I'm typing
I'll read my Kindle instead.

[EagleRay]

BigChoc were you allowed to watch all 3 channels?

I don't think we realised itv existed until we were in our teens!

[CrepeDeChineWag]

Absolutely agree about 'big food' and their influence on snacking. Most things I read to do with parenting when DD was little (10 years ago) actively encouraged snacking (I fed on demand when she was a baby too, every 2 hours!!!) as a way to head off problems (are they ill/tired/hungry). It didn't help that I was knackered and used cake food to keep my energy levels up during the day. I expect in 10 years time when childhood obesity is even worse the advice will be to stick to meal times only. You can't win sometimes can you?

[CQ]

Oooh and remember when we had to get up and walk over to the TV to change the channel? Burning more calories every time!!

[grannygroan]

My mother came from a very poor family and I remember her telling me she once got an orange for Christmas as a child. That was it. Just an orange. And she and her sister and brother were very excited with their presents too. Yes, strange to think that no so long ago snacks simply did not exist. But then again, I still remember farthings. Just.

And speaking of snacks - struggling slightly at the moment and still two hours until dinner time. Filling up on water and trusting babysitting will suitably distract me.

I have updated my OH too so he knows not to buy anything sugary or snackish for the time being and he is totally on board. Picked up an M&S meal deal today so I told him to get profiteroles so I wouldn't eat them. And he picked up apple pie saying I'll get this instead so you can have dessert too. Apparently I still have my withering stare as he slowly backed away, put it back and picked up profiteroles!!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Good to hear your withering stare is on target , Granny
Wrt snacking, it's useful to remember that it used to be the norm to be hungry at mealtimes. I need be, slightly increase mealsize and start wth 4 meals, then see if you want to reduce to 3