5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hi Geordie!

Welcome to the threads. 5 years, eh? I'm interested in how you got started. I began 4 years ago after reading two articles on IF in one weekend - one in Newsweek and the other in the Independent.

I thought a quarter of our daily calories was a bit extreme, so I went to half the calories on 2 days a week. And still lost weight - without even trying! Didn't go down to 600 cals until after the Horizon prog in August 2012.

So what was your way in to this WOL, if I may ask?

I'd like to do Sat as it would help cut out weekend indulgences, you're right, BC, but I think I'd feel deprived and that would make me more likely to throw in the towel, if you know what I mean?

Evening everyone. :)

I hope everyone has had a good weekend. I've eaten a bit more today and yesterday, including a couple of treats for the weekend - a cookie today and half a slice of cake yesterday (dd ate the other half) but have still stayed well under my tdee. I also managed to get some walking in yesterday, and a bit of table tennis.

FD tomorrow. It feels like the right thing after a somewhat indulgent weekend. I'm considering another b2b fast on Tuesday, given how easy I found it last week, but I'll see how I go. What I did notice is that it seemed to moderate my appetite for the rest of the week, do that was quite appealing.

I've got to the end of dry January today, and haven't had a drop of alcohol since New Year's Eve. I haven't really missed it, and I've enjoyed drinking fizzy water instead, so I might continue to abstain for a while.

Weigh-day tomorrow. I've had quite a few carbs today, and am probably retaining water as a result, so I won't expect wonders. It's totm as well, so I'm not too worried about what the scales say, as I know I'm doing ok.

Good luck to all the other Monday fasters!

Ok I'm floundering I'm peev'ed at still not getting to my pre Xmas weight and if I'm honest I've struggled to toe it back in line ever since Xmas, I do fine fast days but on NFDs I'm just not maintaining the same strictness.

OM has been off for weeks now after he had a bunion op and I'm fed up of playing nurse maid esp as his fully capable of going to his mates party and then the next day resumes sofa position I need my space back! I can't take no more Arghhh

Thank you for listening to me whine :)

Well actually if I look back on today I did somewhat we went to McDonald's and OM and daughter ate loads I ordered nothing and just picked a little at there's so I should be somewhat proud of myself I could of ate a whole md's and I didn't

Thanks for the welcome everyone. :)

Currently I'm doing alternative day fasting (not for the faint of heart, I know) to shift the xmas pounds. It's working splendidly.

I'm also a bit of a gym addict. Really into boxing and weight lifting classes at the moment. And HIIT on the treadmill every other day.

Around totm, the scales may just yell boo to shock you, Broken so ignore if it does
Most women retain a few lb water at totm, which should be released the 1st FD afterwards. So, at the following weigh-in, you should see those lb have dropped off, plus a lb or so of fat.

Then Friday FD sounds better for you, Maddy
I admit I like my Monday FD now, just starts the week off on a good note for me.

Lottie I suggest you mfp on NFDs, to retrain your habits and highlight any particular issues.
You may have become used to larger portions, or to less healthy higher GI food, or to more alcohol.
Maybe you are snacking ( stop ! )

I'm another gym rat, Geordie and I box, lift and HIIT < fist bumps >

Geordie and everyone interested in exercise:
You are also welcome on our IF ExerciseThread3 with support & advice for all levels & types.

B&W and I can both do 500+ pressups and Anglaise posts her brilliant long distance runs, whereas others are just tentatively starting to walk.

BigChoc I do MFP religiously that's the problem i can see I'm going over by 100 or more on nfds but I seem to have lost all willpower on those days yet can stick to a FD no problem :(

I'm going to go back over the month and actually write down the food that may have been unnecessary for me to eat if I write it down I may find a pattern and can work from there, I know it's not bread I only eat whole meal for breakfast, I no longer have potatoes with dinner, and have swapped white rice for wholegrain and quinoa in smaller portions, pasta I also try to avoid.

Possibly I've got into such a habit of mfping that I'm not giving it my full attention just eating and adding

Morning,
Lottie, I was finding little things on mfp that I underestimated. My 10g of nfd butter was 20g, 500 cals a week!! Just 1 item. If near a normal bmi, we can't get away with it.
Anyway, busy social weekend,dh birthday, there was wine! Say no more. Mini FD today, got visitors later I will do my best.
Working myself up to b2b on Wednesday/Thursday.Will need to plan filling foods.
All have a good one.x

lottie how about doing an extra fast day then? if the fast days are easy but NFDs are hard then an extra fast day would boost the calorie deficit to make up for NFDs - you might also find it curbs your appetite a bit doing more fasting.

alternatively you could try doing a smaller eating window on NFDs - like 16:8 which isn't too hard - stopping eating at say 6pm and eating nothing till 10am the next day?

i've got a feeling if i got on the scales now i'd be sad at what they said. i seem to be huge around the middle at the minute - currently 15hrs into fast but my stomach is puffed out and sore as if i've just eaten a christmas dinner. i can't remember exactly when i had my last period but i'm pretty sure it's overdue so i'm blaming that and trying not to attach too much importance to what may well just be water retention and bloat.

i seem to have slipped into being more motivated by building strength in my body than being skinny what with giving up smoking and now this i don't know what the hell is happening to me hope i can keep it up.

Morning everyone
Good luck on your 1st FD today, LadyP
And good luck to all the Monday fasting gang, a great way to start the week.

Drink some water and keep drinking through the day !
Tip: unsweetened almond milk is v lower cal than cows milk - only 2 cals for a 10ml drizzle ! - and is v healthy.

Morning everyone! Just done my weekly weigh-in and I've lost another 3lb, so that's just over a stone since 4th January. :)

I still have loads more to lose before I get to where I want to be, but I'm pleased with the good start and feeling motivated about today's fast!

Good luck to the rest of the Monday gang!

or just give it up - i never thought i could drink black coffee (was a milk and sugar girl and thought black was gross tasting) till i was 5:2'ing a while and started really resenting the fact that i was having to break my fast and it's benefits in order to get caffeine.

congrats brokenbiscuit - that's a massive weightloss in less than a month.

Lottie IIRC you are within healthy BMI, but even so, you should still lose if you are only 100 cals over each NFD.
You may just need to be patient until your bod gets out of holiday mode and back into fasting mode.

I suggest you try a few ideas just for 2 weeks, to shake things up.
Any / all of these:

• A 3rd FD or mini-FD
• Go dry
• daily 16:8
• Go low carb Mediteranean - so swap the bread, rice etc for beans & lentils and boost protein. No sugary, carby treats

Remember, just for 2 weeks,so you can do this
As always though:

• Drink water
• NO snacking

Congrats on your SV, Broken That's an excellent loss. You'll lose the rest too.

Morning all, no surprises but I've gained this week. Back to 58kg. FD's were fine but hugely over on NFD's. I had two meals out, a lot of chocolate and a takeaway and booze Saturday. This week is much less social so I need to reign it in. Hardest thing for me will be ignoring the constant chocolate at work. As I don't have much on, I think I'll do as close to 4:3 as I can this week and fast Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
Have a good one all fellow Monday fasters.

Hi geordie! I am a newbie to the thread too and not an experienced faster like you. ADF sounds hard but clearly gets results! Well done. I wish I was a gym addict - more of a biscuit addict atm , though I do Zumba once a week and try and do a Davina 15 min workout every weekday.

broken I've been doing dry Jan too and surprised myself by loving it. Not that a drank all that much before (though probably a bit too much if I'm honest). I'm planning on staying off the booze from now till Easter if I can - starting lent early! Also thinking about giving up bread for lent as it's something I can eat and eat at without paying attention. I also eat far too many toast and sandwich based breakfasts and lunches.

Anyway, first FD for me! Have had a cup of tea. Feeding toddler some breakfast now and having some fizzy water. Hope everyone has a good day!

And have just weighed myself. I am 12 stone exactly according to my bathroom scales. Target weight is 11 and a half stone to start with but 11 stone eventually. Just writing this down as a record for myself really.

Honey Around totm (thankfully several years behind me !) ignore scales & tape measure.
You've a few lb retained water which will be released afterwards - just don't succumb to the totm munchies.

Short Make this a daily habit: NO snacking EVER
That covers chocolate, cakes, biscuits, biscuits etc.
If you want some on NFDs, only do so as part of a meal.

Sugary snacks spike insulin, increase hunger later, stop fat-burning and add fat to the middle. Even healthy snacks raise insulin a bit and studies show they result in most people eating more in total over the day.

I have been following the thread all week and learning lots, but as a newbie haven't got a lot to contribute atm. But I'm pleased I lost another 2lb this week, so I reckon if I can do the same next two weeks, I'll be on for half a stone in a month. That really pleases me .

I feel so despondent. I've been doing the 5:2 for 4 weeks and despite the fact my clothes feel much loser, the scales are saying I've only list 2lbs.

I only need to lose a stone but I don't understand where I'm going wrong as I'm being super careful on NFD.

Any ideas where I could be going wrong?