5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[Olives106]

Can anyone help me with calories in ordinary brown rice? The packet (Sainsbury's) says 90 cal per 100g, which seems a bit low, but googling it give me everything from 100 to 369 cal!

[annielostit]

Olive mfp says,
100g cooked is 128 cal
100g dry is 369cal
My cupboard says m&s 75g dry per ptn cooked = 253
Usually approx 35/40 g dry or pasta makes about 100g cooked.

[Olives106]

Thanks! That makes sense,of the different numbers. Of course it's heavier after cooking

[mrswhiskers]

I didn't notice there was a new thread so I'm going to paste my post from the old one and place mark:

I'm on my second FD of the week today and my 4th since restarting 5:2. I haven't weighed for a couple of weeks but planning to weigh in tomorrow.
My itchy skin has improved greatly since starting fasting again and my dermatitis spots are nearly away too. I had stopped using emollients completely when I was fasting before but within weeks of stopping fasting my itchy skin came back.

I also have a probably silly question. I was maintaining for a few months eating around 2300 cals a day with no FDs so is 2300 my TDEE that I can consume on NFDs?
The calculators say my TDEE should be 1900 so I'm assuming I'm more active than I gave myself credit for?

Finally caught up on the old thread. Sounds like everyone is making good progress after the festive season.

[CharleyFarleyy]

On my 2nd and last FD of the week, had a good for you thai chicken soup (124cal) and planning a good for you cottage pie ready meal (324cal) and big cups of green tea and loads of water, looking forward to weighing myself on saturday, hopefully i will have a loss to tell you all about

[cheeseandbanana]

Ok FD #2 well under way. I did well this morning with just herbal tea and my fish finger and nimble bread sandwich (100kcals) for lunch was nice and filling I've made a Mediterranean vegetable soup coming in at 200 kcal a for two enormous portions so I'm just trying to hold off from eating it!

mrsfizzy I nearly toppled earlier on at kids tea time - so hard not to pick! I chomped a breadstick (22kcals) and downed a Coke Zero.

[annielostit]

FD over kitchen closing when dh makes me a cuppa.
Got 406 plus iceberg, roast pepper & courgette. Did good by getting to 2.30 on raspberry tea thing & soda water. Sure I spent 2 hours weeing, no chance to eat then no weighing for me going on clothes for a bit.
Well done Thursday fasters.xx

[cheeseandbanana]

Ok soup eaten (well most of it!) and with 488 locals the kitchen is now closed

Hope the other Thursday fasters are all ok, gorging on veggies and feeling full-ish by now with a bit of luck.

[prettygreen]

Just finished my 2nd FD. These threads are helping me loads - thanks everyone and good luck all round.

[OohMrDarcy]

Evening all, kitchen closed on 500ish cals and about 3 litres of water

official cals is 520 - tried a be good to yourself chicken tikka ready meal as my main meal (400) but didn't eat all the rice, so reckon I can knock 20 off without worrying.

Friday is weigh in day, lets see what it brings!

[Brokenbiscuit]

My kitchen is closed now too. 498 calories according to MFP. :) I don't feel all that hungry either, surprisingly.

Looking forward to eating properly tomorrow. Lunch is already made.

I have been quite careful on my NFDs so far, so might relax a bit at the weekend -without going mad!

[SandrasAnnoyingFriend]

Looks like everyone has had good days, pats on the back all round.

I've closed the kitchen on the 2nd of my B2B fast days at just under 600. Had a delicious prawn jungle curry with some rice noodles for dinner and a Sharon fruit for pudding. Feeling pretty full now.

So I've managed 3 FDs this week and hope to see a bit of a loss tomorrow morning. Fingers crossed.

[Olives106]

Kitchen closed on 505. Three FDs this week. Scales tomorrow but not v hopeful I've actually lost weight as it's TOTM and I always put on a few pounds for a few days right now.

[fusspot66]

I'm nearly there with 2nd fast of the year. Welcome to all the new faces. And those trying their first fasts. It does get easier!

[BigChocFrenzy]

MrsW If you were maintaining on daily 2300 and have only resumed fasting for health benefits, I recommend you aim for 2300 and allow yourself to go over on social occasions.
If you want to trim down a bit, keep within the 2300 and if you find progress v slow, then drop to 1900.

Elsa I hope you enjoyed dinner out today with your DH.
If you really want another FD this week, I suggest tomorrow or Saturday - I do Saturday's sometimes, to stop the weekend being too heavy foodwise.
If you manage 3 mini-FDs, that brings similar weight loss to 2FDs for most folk, depending on TDEE and the NFDs.

From your schedule, I think Tuesdays and Thursdays would probably be good days. The main thing is NO snacking / tasting / nibbling on FDs, preferably not on NFDs either - tends to pile up calories but without feeling you've satisfied you've had a decent meal.
Try that next week.

[mayflyaway]

got through my consecutive FDs fine ... I secretly enjoy the slightly manic buzz I have on day two, I'm super productive. Not fasting today - 2 cups of coffee (full cream milk) for breakfast, oat cakes hummus (home made) & salad for lunch & a veggie stir fry thing for dinner. I sipping a G&T currently.

I'm planning another FD tomorrow - I have my brother & his family staying this weekend, he's a real foodie & I want to be able to enjoy his company (& cooking!) without worrying about doing too much damage.

I had planned to do weigh in tomorrow morning, but I'm really bloated (period started early) & I get so discouraged by a not-good-loss that I think I might wait until next week!

[ednabuckett]

FD over for me at 533 today. Hope I've edged nearer to my chrimbo weight then it's phase 3 for possibly my final target weight. Really need to keep in control this weekend and keep momentum up.

[Sallycinnamum]

Hello. Newbie here!

I tried 5:2 a few years ago and failed miserably but realise now I was pigging out on my non fast days, which negated the fast days of course.

I've come to realise after low carbing (life's too short not to eat bread and porridge) and vLC last year that fasting suits me as I can pretty much stick to two days a week as I know I'll be able to eat semi normally the next day.

FD Monday and yesterday and I'm 2lbs down although I know realistically it's just water but it's still a boost. I've also discovered that Eat does a salmon and pea salad for 166 calories, which is perfect on my fast day and fills me up until I get a home in the evening.

Onwards and upwards and all that!!

[Grannygrots]

After a ropey start this morning I really haven't been that hungry, so FD went ahead. Just did some light conditioning rather than a proper workout.

About to have my soup and then kitchen is closed.

Just need to watch what I eat over the weekend, although whatever it is it will be with wine, but I will add everything into MFP. DH has helpfully bought cheesecake.

[EverythingisonmyMurtaughlist]

A newbie here, did my first fast days in succession (tues/wed) which I don't think I will do again. I wasn't starving though, just felt a bit tired day 2. Made the chilli from the Fast Cook book - so surprised how much of a portion you got for just 241 kcals. In fact now I'm weighing and measuring everything I'm surprised at how much of the good stuff you can eat. Don't have access to scales so don't know my weight so can't set up my mfp yet. That will be rectified tomorrow.

Question - the TDEE how close should I stick to it as it seems a lot? I think it's more than the average daily recommendation for a woman so it confuses me how I could eat so much on a NFD and lose weight?

[Brokenbiscuit]

Question - the TDEE how close should I stick to it as it seems a lot? I think it's more than the average daily recommendation for a woman so it confuses me how I could eat so much on a NFD and lose weight?

I'm a bit confused about that too, everything. I guess we'll lose faster if we eat a bit less than on the NFDs. My plan is to eat sensibly and under the TDEE on NFDs during the week, and to allow myself to eat what I like (probably around TDEE) at weekends. Will this work?

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, Sally, Everything Lovely to see how many newbies we have

That's a good start, Sally
Now you are eating "normally" on NFDs, you should lose well. If you find loss is slow, then mfp for a week, just to check your "normal"

Everything, Broken The calorie deficit comes from the 2 FDs. For the NFDs, you just need to eat within TDEE, so that you don't eat back the deficit.
So, the idea is to eat around TDEE on average for the NFDs.
If you aren't hungry, don't eat, though. You may be v hungry another day and need those calories in the bank.

TDEE is v individual, hence the calculator.
If you are a combination of tall / heavy / v active / young then your TDEE may be much higher than 2000. If you are short, middle-aged & sedentary it may be below 1400.

If you want to speed up weight loss, you can calculate either your sedentary TDEE or the TDEE of your goal weight (set for current activity level)
I recommend you have at least one NFD per week when you relax and eat your full TDEE, so this WOE is sustainable for you, not too stressful.

Well done on your b2b, Mayfly We are all impressed - that's hardcore !
Enjoy the WE with your DB.

[Brokenbiscuit]

Thanks bigchoc, that makes sense. I'm sure I will have no trouble eating my TDEE at weekends!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Just seen you are another who nailed a b2b, Sandra That's great.

Well done on your FD, Granny, Edna, fusspot, olives, broken, MrD, Pretty, cheese, annie, charley, MrsW, lovemyway
Phew, Thursday is popular for fasting !

[EverythingisonmyMurtaughlist]

Thanks bigchoc that makes a bit more sense. I need to focus ...I cannot go another year this size!