5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
=======

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
============

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[shortaris1]

Evening all, never done this before but was completely shattered today so didn't fast as I'd planned and had a McDonald's instead. Going to fast tomorrow instead.

Bigchoc if I had the willpower to never snack I wouldn't need to be on a diet thread. I do what I can.

[gincamelbak]

FD nearly done. I've also done two miles of nursery run (at speed - didn't want caught in the storm!) Andworked at home avoiding cake aand snacks. Have had soup for lunch and scrambled eggs for tea. Apple and banana at lunch. Plenty water too.

Just need to get through bedtimes and sit out storm Henry

[Maddy128]

Thanks Olives I rarely go on Sainsburys so will check it out and try a few m&s ones too i think. I used to like the weight watchers ready meals when I was a student and now I can't imagine enjoying one! They're not even all that low cal as I recall!!

[Greengardenpixie]

Well my FD is nearly over. I have felt quite hungry tonight and really craving something sugary. Its a pain. Trying to have a mug of tea in the hope the desire shifts. Its been fine apart from tonight. I havent caved though and wont either. It has been hard though!!!! I have matchmakers in the fridge yum..they will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Olives106]

My favourite thing for sugar cravings are the little pots of Hartleys jelly that you can get. They're either 10 or 15 cal depending on the type and they're very sweet (sweetened with goodness knows what rubbish, but I do find they satisfy my sweet cravings!)

[Elsasalterego]

Hi all, I'd love some advice but I' really not sure if anyone will be able to give any. I haven't been very successful with my efforts this time round with 5:2. I do manage my FDs (although only managed one last week) but I occasionally binge on my NFDs. I used to suffer from anxiety but now I've been diagnosed with depression. I often turn to food when feeling down and I'm struggling with the willpower to eat within my TTDE on my NFDs. Has anyone got any advice on how I might work to increase my willpower? Last time I weighed I'd lost just over a kilo in 3 and a half weeks. TOTM due soon so not much point weighing now- I feel bloated (big belly makes me feel worse about my failures), have had loads of carbs and a whole tub of hummus this evening- plus bakery goods at work this morning. Obviously PMT also not helping with the depression either, or the slip ups as I have been having terrible sugar cravings. Tomorrow is a FD and I am quite nervous about it as I had broken the 'first week pain barrier' but I am scared it is going to be an uphill struggle now that I missed Thursday's FD (just felt so melancholy I couldn't face the fast).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Elsa.

[fusspot66]

Tomorrow is another day. Forget today and just give it your best shot tomorrow.

[Elsasalterego]

I am pushing myself into action- getting out of this hot bath where I am clearly soaking in my sorrows and am getting on the treadmill for some HIIT.

[tostaky]

Kitchen closing at 500 exactly! Wow! I didn't think I would do it. It must be easier to fast in summer, surely?

Regarding ready made meals, I bought from Ocado some little quinoa pots about 180/200calories each. also slim fast do drinks that are about 180cals, that's easy.

I am ready to eat my breakfast tomorrow morning! Plus I've planned a veggie child with guacamole and sour cream...aaaahhh I am dribbling!!!!

To keep me going I decided to allow myself to buy new clothes when I reach 70kgs... Can't wait...

[sparkle789]

Kitchen closed at 470cals.
Glad I got through today. It has been the hardest FD so far.

I also like ready meals for FD ive mainly been having Sainsburys meal soups. The chicken balti one is delicious! Can't wait for breakfast tomorrow. I don't think I've ever been so excited for porridge.

[Breadandwine]

Plus I've planned a veggie child with guacamole and sour cream

I love children, too - just don't think I could manage a whole one!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on your SV, Kitla That's very good progress this time round.
You're right, getting control of NFDs is key for most folk who are not losing.

tostaki and anyone else who doesn't count on NFDs, but is finding loss is slow
I strongly recommend you mfp for a full week, just to check NFDs wrt TDEE.
If you are eating back all the FD deficit on NFDs, you'll hardly lose at all.

short If you are eating meals with sufficient protein & veg, you should be able to go at least 4 hours until the next meal, without snacking.
Do you need to increase meal size slightly ? Especially boost protein, because that keeps you fuller. Try to make meals low GI.

If you absolutely must snack, crunch raw carrots or even a small handful of unsalted nuts.
Avoid sweet snacks, even fruit - their high GI spikes insulin, which switches you from burning fat to storing it.

That sounds a nasty tickly cough, lovemyway
Strangely enough, the remedy that has been shown in studies to be even better than over-the-counter remedies is..... ta da .... Dark chocolate !!
Needs to be at least 70% cocoa though.
Don't gulp it, suck slowly.

[BigChocFrenzy]

B&W At least "veggie child" sounds free range, not factory-reared.

[missjemima]

End of another FD here, weighed myself this morning and I've dropped a total of 3.5 kg. so happy! Started this WOE the second week of Jan, things are moving along nicely. Am now 26.5 BMI and can't wait until I hit the magic 25, that's my first big goal. Really helps to read everyone's posts daily even if I only comment myself now and then. Thanks to BigChoc too for all your fab advice!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Sparkle Many people find FDs easier if they avoid fruit, especially high sugar fruit like banana or mango or dried fruit.
This is because fruit is high GI and can spike insulin, especially if you have it on its own

You posted you had a banana as a v small meal; much more filling to have protein, e.g. a boiled egg / small piece of cheese / handful of nuts / tin of tuna / ... with say mushrooms / tomato / cucumber / carrot

[BigChocFrenzy]

Congrats on your SV, MissJemima That's excellent progress. You are getting near the lower BMI band

[Brokenbiscuit]

Closed the kitchen earlier on 468 calories, after a very satisfying meal involving poached eggs, avocado and tons of spinach! :) Feel like I ate loads!

Planning to do another b2b tomorrow if I can. I tend to eat more at the weekend so like the idea of giving my body a rest afterwards, and it's also nice to know that I've got the FDs under my belt for the week. I think this WOE really suits me, feel so much healthier already!

[shortaris1]

Sounds lovely broken

I eat tons of protein Bigchoc I just like my chocolate and there's lots of it about! I'll get there.

All ready to fast tomorrow.

[Brokenbiscuit]

I forgot to mention that I was very proud of resisting the most delicious looking chocolate cake that my colleague brought into work today! I was tempted, but I stuck to my resolve! :)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Sorry to hear that, Elsa Has the GP prescribed anything to help ?

With depression, it's natural to reach out for sugary junk, because your system is trying to increase its levels of feel-good hormones.

However, sugar and high carbs just start cravings spirals and send you on an emotional rollercoaster, because your levels of hormones like insulin, also seratonin & dopamine are fluctuating wildly.
You need to stabilise your blood sugar.

What might help:

• Avoid sugary treats and baked goods Go low GI:
  For your treats, have unsalted nuts, e.g. almonds, walnuts are good too.
  Enjoy plain Greek yoghurt with berries
  Fish may help mood because of its high Omega 3 content.
  Eat eggs & poultry too, beans, lentils, lots of veg
  Switch from white carbs to complex, e.g. brown rice, quinoa, sweet potato, wholegrain bread - but no more than 2 slices at a time.
  Have fruit, not fruit juice.
  
  
• Keep within nhs alcohol limits - alcohol is a depressant.
  
  
• Walk / jog outside in daylight, especially sunlight. This raises your seratonin levels.
  Exercise indoors too, to music. Do you have a gym with e.g. nice Zumba or yoga classes ? Even dance at home to your fav tunes.
  
  
• Cut back on caffeine. Too much can cause brain neurones to become desensitised to seratonin.
  Try herbal tea, e.g. ginger or aniseed, with Stevia instead of sugar, if you like it sweet.
  
  
• Next time you see your GP, ask if it ok to take a Vitamin D3 supplement and Vitamin B complex (you need to ask, in case it interacts with any meds he has prescribed for you)

[PurpleAlerts]

FD for me today and was much easier than last week as I took advice on filling up on salad and veg having a nice salad with tinned sardines including some green beans and a few uncooked peas . Then nice Waitrose ready meal of beef in red wine sauce ( only 233calories!)
Already made a nice lunch for tomorrow and plan to do 16:8 for my NFD! Well done to all Monday faster a!

[GeordieBadger]

Vibrantella ADF works just like regular fasting, only I don't feel guilty if I eat less-than-healthy foods on non-fast days. Like tomorrow, when I'm having a chicken a bacon melt with chips :)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Elsa If you are finding FDs v tough, you can try 800-cal FDs, provided you go Low Carb Mediteranean, including on the NFDs.
It's basically low carb with lots of fish, plus beans, lentils, peas, yoghurt.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done, Monday fasters Night, night

[fusspot66]

Good night and thank you Big Choc