5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks big choc and broken shes nearly back to normal :)

I had a FD yesterday. Because I was working till 8 I only ate an evening meal so I had 330 cals. I've been using the Sainsburys meal soups on my fast days they are quite filling for low cals, I always feel like I've had a good meal.
NFD today, and I'll probably have a FD tomorrow.
Dh had his first weigh in and lost 6lbs this week.

How much closer water should I be drinking? I hardly drink anything and I'm trying to increase it.

Water is v important. Aim for 1.5 - 2 litres. More is fine

congrats to your DH on his SV. Great start.

Mosely posts on the BSD site FAQs:
"The basic principle is to eat foods that are high in protein and fibre, as these are the most satiating. That means fish, meat, vegetables"
He says to cut out starches & limit fruit.

So, quite different to the normal 5:2, where you eat the way you want.

Thanks BigChoc

I should check out the website.

I would be surprised I didn't have problems with blood sugar. I'm currently BMI 33, and carry a lot on boobs and tummy.

I am addicted to sugar I think and have a deeply entrenched habit of eating cakes and things as a crutch.

I really want to get in control of my weight and increase exercise. I feel very depressed about it really which of course makes it a bit harder to get in the right frame of mind. Feel like I have a lot of work to do mentally!

Best of luck achieving your goals, Frinket Go for it !
You are very welcome to post here too for 5:2 BSD or 8-week BSD support

Frinking

I have a very overweight, unfit friend who is in a lot of pain from arthritis and has quite a few other problems - I'm quite worried about him.

So I sent this email to him this morning - thought it might be useful to post it on here.

Hi

Been thinking about you…

Seems to me that some of your problems can be solved by your own efforts.

OK, we all need the doc for certain things - but other things can be put under the general heading of ‘Self help’.

Things like what and when we eat, how much exercise we do, etc.

These do, however, require a certain amount of will power.

But the will to do something, if done often enough, creates its own positive loop - it can become a virtuous cycle.

Which can then be used to start off another life-changing habit - and on it goes.

No-one has a greater interest in our own well-being than ourselves. So it’s up to us to take charge of our own health - and actually makes some changes. I’m doing this with my exercise regime. I’m slowly building up the number of press ups I can do, for instance. Last night I did 500 in 55 minutes. I’m aiming for 1000 in an hour. Bear in mind that just over two years ago I could not do one single press up. but I found a way to start, and, once I could do one, I was away.

So you could start with something small - like no snacking, ever! That’s EVER! Only eat at mealtimes - if you want a treat, have it as part of the meal - a pud, if you like.

Mealtimes - put your breakfast back half an hour each day, one week - then another half hour the second week. Bring your evening meal forward by half an hour in the same way.

Do press ups by leaning on the wall, or the back of a chair. Go online and find simple exercises for the unfit.

You can do this, [friend]. Remember, one simple success will give you the motivation to go on and achieve more. Succeed at one thing - that will inspire you to try something else!

Good luck - and, remember, I’m always here for you!

Take care - and start today!

Any other words of wisdom I could impart to him would be gratefully received. I'm firmly convinced that we should all take charge of our own health (preaching to the converted, here, I know! ]).

You are very brave to send that. You obviously know your friend and i hope he takes it in the right way. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear. I have a friend who has chronic pain from arthritis but is several stone overweight. They have been told to lose weight by their doctor to ease the pain but haven't ever done anything about it. I hope your friend chooses action with the help and support of a caring friend such as you.

B&W I don't know his drinking & eating habits, his CV system, his insulin metabolism, so some of this may not be suitable, but I suggest:

• With arthritis & obesity, he needs to be v cautious about exercise & diet, so consult his doc first about what we suggest.

My ideas:

• For exercise, start with a short daily walk, even 10 mins at first.
  . As he gets fitter & slimmer, build up to walking intervals of 1 min brisk pace alternating with 1 min normal pace.

• Then add some light dumbbellsfor shoulder press, bench press, biceps (kettles & pressups might be better later)
  I don't normally specify biceps, but with arthritis he probably needs to improve his ability to grip.
  Bodyweight squats & pressups could come later, after he has lost the weight and if his doc thinks it ok.

• Go 2:5 for alcohol and sugary treats, i.e. just have them on 2 days per week

• If he has been sedentary & overweight for some time, he may have insulin resistance.
  So, Low Carb Mediteranean might suit him (NOT any version with 800 cals, just eat sensibly)

• I agree that easing his way into a 12-hr eating window, say half-hr per week until he gets there. No tougher fasting than that, for now.
  . i.e. daily 12:12 on Low Carb Med, nhs guidelines for alcohol, no snacks.

Evening!

Planning to have my first FD tomorrow. Will hopefully just have tea and coffee throughout the day and then a Niçoise salad made with some tuna I have in the freezer, boiled egg, lettuce, tomato and some vinaigrette. Think that should keep me at about 500 cals.

Argh! Posted too soon! Meant to wish you all luck with FDs and NFDs alike.

FD all done. I find it much easier now to just have one meal. It means I can eat pretty much the same as everyone else.
NSV today- had to buy a smaller size of jeans as my old ones were starting to look too baggy.

Welcome to 5:2, Lady.

Good luck on your 1st FD tomorrow, LadyP Sounds a good plan.
If you have milk & sugar, don't forget to add those cals. I suggest tonight you measure out your milk & sugar in advance for the while day and out them into little pots.

1st thing tomorrow: weigh yourself, measure waist & hips.
Then have a big drink of water & keep drinking water through the day. You can change it up with fizzy water, lemon slice & ice.
A teasp of Marmite neat from the jar is only 10 cals and helps avoid headaches - it boosts salt, minerals, B vits.

Hunger tends to come in waves, just stick it out. Most folk find they get used to fasting after a couple of weeks, after which they develop a routine and it is much easier.

Well done on your FD, boldly Sounds like you have your individual routine perfected

and well done on the baggy jeans NSV

Wonderful tips bcf! Thanks.

Sunday fast day over, kitchen closed at 524. slightly over indulged at the weekend but unusually do not feel racked with guilt. Wore a dress - I have not worn a dress/skirt for about 3 years. Got a lot of positive comments.

Also my dh has told me he's noticed an improvement in my mood and confidence level which he is thrilled to see. I will be doing either 3 fast days or 2 fast days and a mini this week. Also planning on heading back to the gym from Tuesday onwards to help with losing weight and toning. I love this WOE. It's only been a month but can't imagine following any other plan. I can't believe I poo pooed it when it was suggested to me before.

Well done on your FD, the onlyweigh and your compliments NSV.
Great to hear you feel so positive and also that you are going to the gym.
Find something you enjoy - try out different classes like spin, pump, Zumba, TaeBo, yoga which are all great for beginners - and exercise will become a habit.

Evening all,

hope you've had good weekends, I've had my weekend without the DC doing a lot of 'me time', spent half of saturday reading an ace book, and today I started my moonwalk training, a 6 mile walk to my dparents with my best friend, followed by a blagged lift home from my dad It was really lovely to just get some time chatting with my friend, and it made the first walk fly by - so now I know of course that I can do it easily again! Took roughly 1hr 45, which considering a) we weren't thinking about power walking, just going for a long walk, and b) there was a long evil hill at the end, we are very pleased!

Allinall - I started in a similar place to you with the large amount to lose, I've now lost almost 3 stone - how much water do you drink? I talk about it all the time, but once I got the water sussed the weight came off pretty easily for the first couple of months before I hit a proper plateau. Also - sounds like your NFDs are sensible foods, but what are the portion sizes like? Might be worth measuring sizes / weights and using MFP for a week or two just to make sure you haven't underestimated their size? But whatever you do - don't give up! this WOE does work, and will work for you like it is for me!

That's a brilliant moonwalk training NSV, MrD You'll be ace on the night !

I totally second your recommendation to mfp for a week, to check that NFDs are roughly around TDEE.
It can be a real shock / reality check.

Those with a lot of weight to lose have often got used to eating far more than this, i.e. they are eating back all the FD deficit (and sometimes much more)
mfp helps highlight calorie bombs and if necessary, trains you to eat within TDEE, which is important for maimtenance later.

Ooh some great NSVs lately, well done everyone!
I'm not having a FD tomorrow, have tried to fast on Mondays the last two weeks but have found it too hard to stick to for some reason. Odd given that on a Wednesday, for instance, I find it a breeze! Must be to do with the weekend come down and general Monday tiredness. So I'm thinking of doing Wednesday and Friday this week to see if that works better for me. It's tricky working out what days are best. Friday is a bit of a worry as I take my DD swimming and am usually ravenous afterwards!! If I can't manage it on Friday maybe I'll have a mini fast and then FD on Sunday instead.
It's going to take some figuring out. I'm trying to stay positive in the meantime but occasionally I find my motivation waning. It's very helpful to come on here and read all your experiences actually, to make me see that it can work if I persevere. So thanks

Evening all. Seasoned faster here. Been fasting for 5 years. It's my way of life. Fast day tomorrow!

Great to hear from such a longtime faster, Geordie That's brilliant.

Maddy In the weight loss phase, I found a Saturday FD excellent for limiting weekend indulgence. Wed & Sat ?