5:2 Thread No. 60: If you tried to lose your holiday weight by eating naked in front of a mirror – but the restaurant threw you out - it's time for a science-based approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hope your dd is ok now, sparkle? It's horrible when you have to deal with a medical emergency.

Honey Can you order a care package online ?
Amazon have lots of dark choc.
Amazon Prime have this "Pantry" which allow you to order any 20kg of food (usually tins & packets) for a few quid postage.
Is delivery available in your country ?
Amazon Prime has a free 30-day test period.
Also, may low carb sites have ready meals with veg, e.g. Nutrisaveurs sound better than what you have now

Slow but sure for me. I squeezed into my new size 12 work pants midweek. I'm teetering on 12 stone 0lbs, 1/8 of an ounce. We're having our fortnightly treat of a Saturday night Indian takeaway so I doubt I'll see the longed for 11 something on the scales tomorrow when I officially record my progress, but you pays your money, and you takes your pick. Happy Weekend One and All

Afternoon all. Out last night and takeaway tonight so off to do a big shop for the healthy stuff for next week. Lots of great successes on here as always.

ah don't poor me too much bigchoc - i have year round sunshine, the sea on my doorstep and coral reefs to gaze at whilst 'exercising' c

are packages are out because you pay a fortune in ransom fees taxes to have them release the package to you unfortunately. plenty of people horrified to find that the tenners worth of stuff sent to them from home with all charges allegedly paid for by the sender ends up costing them £30 to get released.

yes i often eat quite nutrient rich food these days because i'm not eating huge amounts and in my small eating window i tend to go for 2 or 3 small dense 'meals'.

it's not all bad - we've just been to the 'chicken shop' and grazed at rotisserie chicken, rice, mixed veg in tomato sauce, broth with some kind of beans in, pickles (carrot, cauli, cucumber, potato ((do pickles count ?)) i love pickles) and tahina. i think we eat that a couple of times a week as it's my son's favourite. not exactly 'diet' food as plenty of fat and calories but a good mix of foods.

i've bought frozen and tinned veg and some tomato sauce today whilst out and i will try to get to the market after yoga tomorrow and buy some potatoes and carrots and anything else i can find that doesn't look ready for the compost bin. i know people are very oh no not carbs but personally i find potatoes are a great help when i'm trying to lose weight as i find them really filling with some lean protein and veg and personally my digestion seems to get better when i eat plenty of potato. there's a shop here that sells decent chicken breast and smoked salmon and apparently sells good brazilian beef. i guess mission for this week is to put in the kind of effort and traveling all over the place it takes to stock the cupboards half decently and make the effort to cook more.

realistically it CAN be done just not as easily and conveniently as i'm used to england - no tesco delivery men or supermarket where you can get it all in one go and really you need to shop or at least look in shops every day to catch stuff when it is available.

oh and you can buy all sorts of proper dry pulses but i confess i really don't know what to do with them.

Sensible portions of carbs - the size of your fist - are absolutely fine for those who aren't insulin resistant, which is actually most people.

Honey In case you feel culinary urges, which you can't squash in time:

Lentils / Split Peas

• No soaking needed, just drain & rinse

Soak Beans Overnight !!

• Evening, get a big pan and add 1lb dried beans with 2.5 litre water.
• Cover & refrigerate overnight.
• Drain & rinse

Cook:

• Put lentils or soaked beans in a big pot
• Add 3 x their volume of water.
• Optionally add herbs or spices, NOT salt
• Bring to a boil
• Reduce heat & simmer gently, uncovered, stirring occasionally, until tender. Add water so beans are always covered Time depends on type of bean, but start checking after 45-60 mins. Most take 60-90 mins.

at import duties.
Sounds like if you invest a day or two stocking up on staples & spices, that'll help for months

and then what with the lentils and beans? will they keep cooked to be added to dishes as and when or need using pretty quickly? at overcoming culinary urges - i mostly catch them in time.

oh and i think it's import duties plus obscene levels of baksheesh demanded by corrupt officers (standard) plus there's probably an official stamp involved that you have to travel to three different offices and fill out 90 forms and hand in 17 passport photos to get. they do like their stamps and forms

I'm feeling a bit discouraged today as I've not lost any weight this week. I only weigh myself once a week, at the gym so always on the same scales. And it's stubbornly just the same today as last week. Not sure where I've gone wrong really. I've had 2 good FDs, and I've been sensible on the other days ( no counting calories, but no snacks, sensible portions etc).

I know I've only been doing this 4 weeks but I think it's a bit early to hit a plateau! I've got so much to lose, about 7 stone ideally, and I'm just feeling annoyed with myself.

Oh, and I've hurt my knee, don't know how, but it hurts .

Allinall

I'm in the same boat as you, I'm enormous with simply masses to lose and the scales to begin wth wouldn't budge at all. It took me over a month to drop just 2 lbs, even though I felt a lot lighter I think it took the scales a while to catch up.

It's going a bit better now, but please don't get disheartened. You are doing the right thing for yourself by trying to lose the weight and in the meantime reaping all the health benefits that come with this WOE. The weight will come off and there are some very inspirational people on these boards who will reassure you it will happen with perseverance.

This is me. My clothes are much looser and i am wearing a skirt that was tight when i was at one of my slimmest times. its loose around the waist yet the scales dont read it. Read this thread:

thefastdiet.co.uk/forums/topic/if-your-clothes-are-looser-but-the-scales-are-the-same-read-on/

Saying that, it was my dd birthday yesterday so too many goodies lying around. Definetly went over my TDEE yesterday and not much better today but back on track tomorrow and FD on Monday so going to go and do some shopping for that so i have plenty in to keep me going on those days that i can eat. I have found that i am pretty much into the routine of FD on Monday and Wednesday and have found my own strategies to make sure it works. I know that certain foods are good to fill you up without the calories - eggs and cooked chicken are great for me.
Feeling i have eaten a lot of rubbish and am actually looking forward to eating sensibly tomorrow and my monday FD!!!

allinall, don't get discouraged! It's completely normal to shed fat intermittently, not in a linear fashion. I try to weigh myself only every 2-3 weeks, because I used to get really frustrated when I saw no loss (or even worse, a pound or 2 up!). When I started low carbing, the first few weeks the weight fell off easily, but that's because of using up the glycogen which binds water in the muscles. By now, after about 9 months of LC and 3 of added 5:2, I seem to be shedding about a kg every fortnight, (no drop after one week, just after 2). I still have quite a way to go, so I do 2 full FDs and a semi-FD per week. (I'm not saying that you or anyone else should do that or go LC too, I'm only doing it because it works really well for controlling my T2.)

Anyway, the scales are not the best at showing fat loss or health improvements that fasting brings (just check the OP for lots of examples and links) - maybe concentrate on measurements or clothing fit...? You've shed some weight already, even if slow, that is an achievement!

Thank you all for encouraging me. I know, of course, that the weight is not going to come off steadily, but in fits and starts. I was just feeling a bit down that I had had a 'good' week with no obvious result. But not all results are on the outside! I'm sure I'm getting some benefits from the fasting at least. Oh well, hopefully next week will be better.

I've been doing dry January as well, so tomorrow I might have a little and enjoy it, before FD on Monday!

Don't lose faith allinall I think all of us have had a weeks where nothing has shifted and we've felt really fed up because we have deprived ourselves and it seems for nothing. Try to remember that even without weight loss, the fasting has benefited you. What seems to happen sometimes is that a few lbs come off at once as long as you carry on and don't eat too much because you feel like giving up. Hang in there!

Many folk find they don't lose every week, Allinall but suddenly lose a few lb every couple of weeks.
This can particularly happen when your body is still getting used to losing, after years of gaining fat. You have to first put the breaks on gaining.

Also, your body weight fluctuates naturally by a few lb - water, undigested food, hormonal swings - especially around totm. This can disguise a 1-2 lb loss, but over weeks the trend becomes clear.

Did you measure yourself before you started, particularly waist ? If clothes are starting to feel looser, you have lost fat.

Many folk notice they become slimmer before the scales move much.
This is because Intermittent Fasting seems to improves body composition - the ratio of fat to muscle - and muscle weighs more than the same volume of fat (and looks so much better)
If you have a weekly calorie deficit, the scales will catch up.

Honey If you drain the cooked beans & lentils, divide them into sealed portions. In the fridge they'll keep 3 days.
Freeze what you don't want and it'll keep 6 months. Just heat up a portion when you want them.

you can buy all sorts of proper dry pulses but i confess i really don't know what to do with them.

Cook 'em and freeze 'em loose in freezer bags! I've always got red kidney beans in the freezer - when I need them I just grab a handful and they're good to go. Here's the method I use:

nobreadisanisland.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/dried-red-kidney-beans-i-love-em.html

I do the same with butter beans and black-eyed beans, although not so often. I've tried it with chickpeas, but for some reason this hasn't been so successful, so I buy a tin every now and again.

I also cook and freeze pearl barley in bulk - simply because it takes a long time to cook. I don't dry these off as I do with the r-k-beans, since they are just so sticky. Instead, once cooked I weigh off 100g spoonfuls, freeze them separately, then bag them up. Every time I make a veg stew/ragu type dish, i just grab a lump from the freezer.

I don't freeze lentils, simply because they cook in about ten minutes - well, the red ones do. I call them my 'fast food' - they're so delicious. I've tried the other lentils, but I don't notice much difference in flavour, and they all take longer to cook - so it's back to the red lentils for me!

Oh, I didn't know red lentils are so quick. Many thanks B&W

thanks b&w. i'm not really keen on pulses and lentils in bulk but i don't mind a handful of each in a stew with plenty of other textures and flavours so freezing would be handy.

breadandwine that's handy to know. I keep having to buy tins of kidney beans as I forget to soak and cook the dried ones in time. Im going to cook up the supplies in my cupboard this week and freeze.

allin I had 4 weeks of no loss when restarting 5:2 but the scales are moving again and I lost half an inch off my thighs both in the same week. You've done well with your loss so far, sometimes it stops and starts. Another poster here (I think mrdarcy ?) had a plateau of several weeks before losing again. It's good to know that even if we aren't losing that we are still getting the health benefits of this WOL.

I'm another one who plateaud on the scales but still lost inches. I only weigh every few weeks now.

FD for me today. Feeling fine so far but did have an indulgent lunch out yesterday. Plenty of stored energy to draw from.

BigChocFrenzy

Just read your comment on the BSD thread about Mosely's BSD 5:2

5:2 Blood Sugar Diet
+ 2 x 800 FDs
+ 5 x Low Carb Mediteranean NFDs

I have the BSD book on my Kindle but can't find any info about modified versions of the BSD - where did you get the info please?

Thanks

Frinking Mosely's BSD Site gives this as #2 of the BSD options.
5:2 was vaguely mentioned in the book, but maybe he & Prof Taylor worked out the details too late to include in the book.

Dr M says that for some of those who can't manage 500 cal FDs, it may be due to blood sugar problems and that 800 cal FDs may be much more doable for them.
Also, the LC Med on the 5 NFDs maybe more what they need than their "normal eating"