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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.

999 replies

BetsyBell · 15/03/2014 11:04

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low; around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a TDEE calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day.

NSV/LSV = Non scale victory/Lifestyle (change) victory.

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

Other Threads
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

Inspirational: eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

Recipes: frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has an incredibly informative and helpful exercise and fitness thread for discussion and advice on combining 5:2 with an exercise regime.

Maintaining: If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Other links
This is a BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.

This Telegraph article comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.

This blog post gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant. It also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

If you’ve been researching IF you may have come across this article which is highly negative about women with BMI in the normal range. Here’s our response to that:

  • With a healthy BMI, those who want to be leaner will usually find weight and waist loss to be much slower than for overweight folk, since, less fat and inches are available to lose.
  • The women with healthy BMIs already had healthier blood sugar than the men in the study. Hence nothing really needed improving.
  • Women who have had health problems on IF were NOT doing 5:2, but the
much tougher ADF or 16:8, ^combined with heavy lifting (often multiples of body weight) AND were often starting from already ultra-low BF 12-16% range.^

-Many were already missing periods or had EDs before IF, due to the low BF %, over-training and over-stressing.

5:2 is a gentler form of IF than ADF or Leangains and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence from longterm 5:2ers, now with healthy BMI, who are continuing to have very positive results and experiences on this WOE.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

And lastly, a few FAQs/Healthy tips :

  • WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • Hot drinks: no limits on tea or coffee any day, just note any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  • FDs: concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Old hands skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.
  • NFDs: no rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar, artificial sweeteners, fizzy drinks, junk food. A few treats per week are good though! Aim to average TDEE over NFDs each week, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • CLENCH for health: men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily.
  • Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, have EDs, any illness, even a bad cold. When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So eat to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks.
  • Check with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate).
  • BREASTFEEDERS: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • SLEEP: everybody needs enough sleep, or weight loss may be slowed.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss if you you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat. HIIT works well with 5:2/IF.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
ErrolTheDragon · 31/03/2014 20:05

Octopus - it's not easy if you're small/not much to lose. My weight loss has been extremely slow. But I think I'm OK with that because the change used to be up rather than down, and also because I'm convinced of the health benefits of 5:2. I think that if you've got low TDEE then the only thing you can do is to be more active and try to gain more muscle.

Not2bObvious · 31/03/2014 20:08

Womble by any chance were you watching 'Obese, a year to save your life' last night? I heard Chris Powell making that sumo comment and then I saw your link, was thinking it was either huge coincidence or we were on same program cycleGrin I was a bit worried when he said sumo wrestlers had no brekkie but then I thought a bit about it and my reckoning on what he was saying was in relation to people skipping breakfast and then losing the plot food'wise later on. And that's 400-500 pound folk who eat 7000 cals a day. Probably insisting on them eating 3 meals, 2 snacks is to get them to treat food normally. Felt better once I aligned it in my mind

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 20:08

Octopus People you see here who you think are having quicker success mostly have as goal a healthy BMI, i.e. initially below 24.9, then maybe 23.
Several of those are stricter than you on NFDs
NTBO, it is much easier for officially overweight people to lose quickly.

A few old hands, by no means all, have achieved BMI 20, but I think only a couple have gone much lower.

Your current weight gives BMI 19.5, goal weight 18.8.

That is possible to achieve, but on any WOE, 5:2 or otherwise, if the weight is not shifting, then you probably need to be much stricter.

Remember too, your metabolism a few years on and after a DC is not the same as it was when you were 25 yrs.

You may need to re-align your expectations with what you are prepared to put in.

So EITHER accept your current BMI, OR really get serious like this:

  • count calories on NFDs, on average TDEE
  • strict 500 NFDs
  • eat cleanly and avoid: alcohol, added sugar, fizzy drinks even diet ones
  • add HIIT exercise about 3 times per week
  • you might even need to go to ADF, to achieve a higher calorie deficit

Sorry, I know this is NOT what you wanted to hear.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 20:16

Not2b
Sumo wrestlers are so different to us (gender, training, aims, 7000 daily cals) that saying we both skip breakfast is meaningless.
We can't draw any useful conclusions from them - other than that nutrition and exercise can radically change body composition.

Wombles
We know fasted training, especially HIIT, can accelerate fat-burning. You just need to fit in your 500 cals on that FD, as well as training.

Read Varady's book, which contains the human studies, different % on FDs and her recommendation for 25%.

Note: No studies on ideal % for 5:2 FDs, but you said you are doing ADF.

Octopus37 · 31/03/2014 20:19

Thanks for the advice, will try and be stricter, I know its just a case of working harder at it in the ways suggested above. Am really going to try hard this week, realise that the only thing I have done right is the strict 500 cal FD's. Just two lots of soup today, total 462 cals. Get the point about it being harder when you have a small amount to lose, just unfortunate that you feel just as hungry as any person who is several stone overweight and doing the right thing.

TalkinPeace · 31/03/2014 20:23

re Sumo Wrestlers - I watched Sumo obsessively when it was on Channel 4 25 years ago
Chiyonofuji was the dominant champion - he was never huge, but when he stopped the training food regime he lost around 6 stone very fast

ErrolTheDragon · 31/03/2014 20:27

Octopus - you might find FDs easier if you can move towards one meal later and perhaps the soup isn't giving as much protein as some other options? If you've got any sort of easy protein (maybe an egg) that would almost certainly work better than dry toast later.

Anyway... I was hungry by lunchtime today, probably because of the walk/run but knowing that was why made it ok IYSWIM. So miso, and then I had the butternut/chorizo thing for dinner. This left me enough for quite a lot of milk - 2 teas plus some for bedtime - and a nice little pile of chilli-lime chicken breast.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 20:52

Total hunk cyclist Eddie Merckx ballooned up to 280 lb when he stopped racing - and didn't lower his calorie intake sufficiently to compensate.
He has lost the weight again and gives the unsurprising advice "Eat less, cycle more"

Helliecopter · 31/03/2014 21:10

eveesmummy No! We've only just been switched over though so I'll get DH to ask in negotiations. He's not keen to give our money to Sky though and I'm sure he'd rather pay more to someone else. He's that stubborn!

Sorry to hear about your chips fail! Although don't call it that. At least you know your hiccup with carbs and choc didn't agree with you!

DorisAllTheDay · 31/03/2014 21:58

Hello everyone. I don't have time to catch up on all the posts at the moment, hopefully everyone's doing OK, poxy children are on the mend, migraines a thing of the past...

My long weekend away didn't quite go according to plan. I had a lovely time, but I ate more than I'd intended on Sunday (they did a gorgeous roast dinner and I had the apple and blackcurrant crumble for my reward pudding) and that set the carb monster going. So I had breakfast this morning having avoided it on the other days, and then I bought loads of carby stuff and seriously over-indulged on the train home. I'm afraid I associate trains with grazing. So tomorrow I'm going to try to slam the monster back in its box with an FD. Anyone else fasting tomorrow?

Emmabryant123 · 31/03/2014 22:18

Doris hi I am!
Sunday was rather over ildugent for me to
And I woke ravenous so hd peanut butter on toast
Then lunch was a choc muffin
And dinner was salad
Going to attempt to fast tomorrow how ever have just thrown a uncle bens spicy tikka masala rice pot, a bag of crisps, two bananas and a cereal raisin bake bar nutri grain bar into my work bag. Hmm should I take all the stuff out?
I do hate when my biscuits/cereal bars get crushed in my bag lol. My bag is hanging on my bedroom door at the moment,

ErrolTheDragon · 31/03/2014 22:22

Doris - tomorrow you are going to succeed in recageing the monster with an FD. We know you can do it.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 22:23

Varady Book: Exercise, ADF, Weight

She did a human study comparing 3 groups:

  1. Exercise only (moderate cardio on gym bike)

  2. ADF no exercise

  3. ADF with exercise.

  4. Exercisers no-ADF lost 1.2" waist
    Increased good HDL cholesterol

  5. ADF no exercise lost 2" waist
    Decreased bad LDL cholesterol.
    Lost 3 x weight of exercisers only (1)
    Only 1% of lost weight was muscle (most diets it is 25%)

  6. ADF exercisers lost 3" waist
    Increased HDL and lowered LDL cholesterol.
    Lost 2 x weight of ADF without exercise (2), so 6 x loss for exercise alone.
    Lost NO muscle.

Confirms what we already knew: diet is key, but exercise can boost it.

Note: Exercise may have more effect on IF than other diets - doubling weight loss is phenomenal.

TwittyMcTwitterson · 31/03/2014 22:28

Hellie, Virgin are pretty good but soooo expensive. Tbh, I don't really see the point in sky and the like. After this years contract is up in just going to cancel it and go back to no tv license and only watching catch up. As long as DD doesn't mind. We can never find anything to watch anyway... I have an absolute love for keeping up with the kardashians but it's not worth the money. And I can only watch it when I'm home alone which is never. I have them all recorded. Wink

I went to the gym tonight Grin burnt off the chips. Prob do an FD tomorrow to make up for this one. Not sure... Hmm

womblesofwestminster · 31/03/2014 22:35

Womble by any chance were you watching 'Obese, a year to save your life' last night? I heard Chris Powell making that sumo comment and then I saw your link, was thinking it was either huge coincidence or we were on same program cycle

hahaha! Yes I was!! What you say makes sense. The sumos don't have breekie, but this enables them to be ravenous to have two large 2000 cal meals later in the day. I even did a pubmed search and couldn't find any 'evidence' for the sumo assertion.

Read Varady's book

What's it called? Is it better than Mosleys?

LakeFlyPie · 31/03/2014 22:36

Gosh this thread moves fast, sorry I struggle to keep up (especially on phone).
Planning FD1 for this week tomorrow, have work meeting which involves 3 hours train commute so seems a good opportunity, going out in evening too so will plan water coffee during day and small portion lasagne with big salad for dinner and job should be a good'un Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 23:08

Wombles
Varady is exclusively ADF
She has done almost all the human trials on IF, hundreds of people, very thorough, excellent science methodology.
She is a USA scientist, world-renowned in IF.
Her book is called "The Every Other Day Diet" FB

Mosely is exclusively 5:2
He tried ADF, but it didn't fit his busy social life. So, he developed 5:2 from 2 tiny studies (by other people) into the WOE we know & love.
Since there were only the 2 studies, he mostly referred to papers from Mattson (leading hormosis researcher) and Varady, which annoyed the cr@p out of her.
He is a BBC science journalist.

Funnily, Mattson explains the science much better than Varady and his book has far more depth.
However, if you are doing ADF amd want to understand more, you really should get Varady's book

A huge number of folk have had success on ADF or 5:2
Which you choose depends on your individual circumstances and preferences.

Breadandwine · 31/03/2014 23:43

I do the occasional LOF for 36 or more hours for a couple of reasons. One is that I'm pretty certain that our ancestors would have had no choice but to go without food for a day, on occasion, and our species is adapted to this.

The Fasting Connection forum guys fast for far longer than this and seem to suffer no ill-effects. As you can imagine, they are pretty extreme - but the forum is well worth a browse.

Secondly, I'm one of the lucky ones in that I don't feel any hunger when I'm fasting, and I find it much easier just to forget about food on an LOF. In the early stages I felt euphoric on these days - now I just have a feeling of well-being pretty much all the time.

I more often these days have a VLcal meal after a 24 hour fast - down as low as

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2014 00:46

B&W Varady measured the % muscle, weight loss, inch loss and the % FD calories, in her detailed human studies.
She doesn't say anyone would feel ill on much less, or that less is in any way contra-survival.
Just that 25% was the optimal value to maximise fat loss while avoiding muscle loss, based on her scientific observations.

Remember she only studies ADF, though.
Other IF variants - 5:2 / 16:8 / Fast 5 etc - might each have a different optimum %, e.g. maybe lower if they have a lower weekly deficit.

I decided to roughly aim for 25% FDs because I had no better science available.
Happily, I found it improved my fasted training performance compared to the lower cals I sometimes tried before. But, YMMV.

MazzleDazzle · 01/04/2014 08:03

Finally caught up on the whole thread!

Weekend away with family and it was a full on scoff! FD yesterday - not enough to reverse the damage I'm afraid though! Also I'm off again next weekend and it will be very calorific (women only = lots of wine and chocolate!), so for the first time ever I am doing a double day fast (mon, tue) and then again on thurs if I can make it! Yesterday was fine, think I'll manage today, but not sure if I'll be able to get back in the FD zone on thurs. We shall see...

Evesmummy - how rude your family were and what a waste of your time! Odd that we feel obliged and guilty, yet they quite obviously couldn't care less!

Emma - re. no fizzy drinks - well done! I've gradually cut out everything except water, tea and black coffee and have found it's made an enormous difference to my sweet tooth. Only give in on special occasions now!

Wombles, because summos get up at 4/5am then they are skipping breakfast and dinner essentially, so therefore it's not an even comparison. And as BC says, zero cals FD are not the gold standard. You should aim for 1/4 of your TDEE otherwise you will lose muscle mass NOT fat - I used to zero cal on FD, but have worked too hard at the gym to sacrifice any of my muscles!

Well done on the SV Blondie!

Errol what a smoothie that tricep dip guy is!

Congratulations on the birth of your baby and welcome to the thread Souper!

That doesn't sound so bad Doris! Was wondering how your weekend away went!

Well catching up on this thread has taken a bloody long time and now I'm running late!

BetsyBell · 01/04/2014 08:21

Ooh, there's a shock - thought I should muster up courage to do a post-fast weigh in after a week of extra eating and I had to double take as there was an unfamiliar number in view - only my lowest blooming weigh in ever (post-babies)!

It may be no co-incidence that all my colds finally cleared up too, and it's spring. and I shaved my legs

Anyway, this week is still about eating mainly veggie and lean. No sugar except fruit. Mustn't forget!

OP posts:
Overtiredmum · 01/04/2014 08:37

Morning all!

Had a weekend of over-indulging although not excessively, it still made me feel pretty sluggish. Successful FD yesterday so feeling tonnes better today. I too seem to be one of the lucky ones on an FD and manage to tune out all day to food, although I always look forward to my evening 500 calories.

Not weighed myself yet this week but was dead chuffed on Friday when someone asked how much weight I'd lost Grin

Planning FDs tomorrow and Friday, then again Monday and Wednesday next week, flying up to Scotland with kids next Thursday for a few days to see friends, so I will have a few days of being very careful.

Overtiredmum · 01/04/2014 08:38

Well done on the loss Betsy! How much have you lost do far?

BetsyBell · 01/04/2014 08:53

overtiredmum I am 2lbs away from losing 4 stone! (Over 2.5 years though and half of that was pre-5:2).

I've been maintaining at 9.10 - 10ish for 8 months so it's exciting to see 9.9. I have a hankering to get to 9.7 just to hit that even 4 stone loss, and so I can be 9 and-a-half rather than nearly-10. Not that it matters particularly of course - I'm more motivated by fitness goals than scales at this point.

OP posts:
BetsyBell · 01/04/2014 08:57

Yay for you overtired - it's lovely when people notice :)

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