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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.

999 replies

BetsyBell · 15/03/2014 11:04

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low; around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a TDEE calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day.

NSV/LSV = Non scale victory/Lifestyle (change) victory.

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

Other Threads
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

Inspirational: eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

Recipes: frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has an incredibly informative and helpful exercise and fitness thread for discussion and advice on combining 5:2 with an exercise regime.

Maintaining: If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Other links
This is a BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.

This Telegraph article comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.

This blog post gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant. It also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

If you’ve been researching IF you may have come across this article which is highly negative about women with BMI in the normal range. Here’s our response to that:

  • With a healthy BMI, those who want to be leaner will usually find weight and waist loss to be much slower than for overweight folk, since, less fat and inches are available to lose.
  • The women with healthy BMIs already had healthier blood sugar than the men in the study. Hence nothing really needed improving.
  • Women who have had health problems on IF were NOT doing 5:2, but the
much tougher ADF or 16:8, ^combined with heavy lifting (often multiples of body weight) AND were often starting from already ultra-low BF 12-16% range.^

-Many were already missing periods or had EDs before IF, due to the low BF %, over-training and over-stressing.

5:2 is a gentler form of IF than ADF or Leangains and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence from longterm 5:2ers, now with healthy BMI, who are continuing to have very positive results and experiences on this WOE.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

And lastly, a few FAQs/Healthy tips :

  • WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • Hot drinks: no limits on tea or coffee any day, just note any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  • FDs: concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Old hands skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.
  • NFDs: no rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar, artificial sweeteners, fizzy drinks, junk food. A few treats per week are good though! Aim to average TDEE over NFDs each week, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • CLENCH for health: men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily.
  • Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, have EDs, any illness, even a bad cold. When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So eat to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks.
  • Check with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate).
  • BREASTFEEDERS: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • SLEEP: everybody needs enough sleep, or weight loss may be slowed.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss if you you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat. HIIT works well with 5:2/IF.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
MazzleDazzle · 01/04/2014 14:06

I have no idea Wombles, but since stopping 4:3 with zero cal FD and starting 5:2 with 500 FD (on the advice of BC), my body fat has consistently came down and my muscle and water mass has risen over a 12 week period.

FD2 is going well. Did a food shop this morning, which I now find strangely therapeutic on a FD, so now my cupboards and fridge are bulging. Haven't planned how I'm spending my 500 cals today, but I've steamed some broccoli and cauliflower left from last week's shop which I might make into some soup.

That reminds me...heard on the radio today that we should be aiming for 7 a day, not 5. How much fruit do you guys eat? When do you eat it? Since starting this WOL I now hardly eat any fruit. Not sure why really, it's just panned out that way. Should I try to eat more?

MazzleDazzle · 01/04/2014 14:07

Sticky duck you say? (rumble, rumble)

MazzleDazzle · 01/04/2014 14:09

Cross posted with BC who always has the science to back everything up! Thanks

runningLou · 01/04/2014 14:16

I have cut down on fruit recently but still eat quite a bit, though not sure I am a good example as am a self-confessed sugar addict!!!
I find eating fruit stops me craving worse sugars though ... Generally I have blueberries with natural yogurt for breakfast, then an orange after lunch, and an apple for an afternoon snack. I am trying to limit bananas and grapes at the moment as although I love them I know they are the highest-sugar fruits. Sometimes have a banana before an exercise session though ... Also a big fan of rhubarb, stewed apple, raspberries, peaches etc as desserts.
I eat tenderstem broccoli, salad, cucumber/carrot sticks and cherry tomatoes on a daily basis, so that makes 4 veg + 3 fruit.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/04/2014 14:19

I've not read the details of the 'new' (not really) 7-a-day advice - but surely the focus should be on veg (non-starchy) much more than fruit?

My intake is variable - if I have breakfast there will be fruit (usually berries of some sort) in it; lunch might include salad or some veg soup but then again might be a cheese toastie; evening meal usually has about 3 different veg with it, more veg than carb, and usually some other fruit (satsumas, maybe grapes or pineapple) at some point in the day.

womblesofwestminster · 01/04/2014 14:36

I'm SO buying her book BigChoc. In fact, I'm doing so right at this moment Grin

womblesofwestminster · 01/04/2014 14:53

Best body composition scales anyone? I'm on a shopping spree. About to purchase THIS as it seems the best. Anyone have any other suggestions? It's quite an important purchase.

MelanieCheeks · 01/04/2014 14:57

More veg than fruit.

breakfasts - spinach and mushroom in my eggs, berries with yoghurt or porridge
lunchs - salad or veg soup, homemade casserole type things with carrots, leeks, peppers
dinners - stir-fries, veg in pasat sauces or curries, courgette ribbons INSTEAD of pasta.

Sometimes I'll have a satsuma or a small apple for snack. I dont like bananananananas.

zedzedzed · 01/04/2014 16:17

Glad you enjoyed sticky duck melanie pretty good for FD nosh I reckon. NFD dinner tonight is teenager's request of satay chicken with noodles...more veg than noodles for me, but fatty nonetheless due to all the peanutty yuminess.

I'm definitely more of a veg than fruit lover myself, though I love cooking with fruits I have to force myself to eat a piece of raw fruit, veg on the other hand, I just can't get enough (massive salads with about 10 different salad veg and at least 20 other flavours in them; seeds, balsamic,herbs,blue cheese,dried fruits,sprouts and shoots, flavoured oils, garlic...who was saying that a while back about complex flavours being far more satisfying, mrsF or maybe Betsy? Totally true). And all my dinners are based around protein and veg, laying off the starch due to Carb Monster stirring in the basement this month.

Fruit can get tae.

Except berries and banananananananananas or apples with cheese.

Any fasters, Meg you on FD2 of 3? Howzitt???

MetellaEstMater · 01/04/2014 16:29

That's the one we use wombles. I also get weighed and body % measured at the (presumably pricier) machine at the gym and the two sets of stats are usually similar.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2014 16:33

I have about the 7 portions, nearly all veg. I don't restrict my fruit, because my aim is health, not weight loss.
It's just that fruit often has colour but no taste, whereas veg is reliable.

Clearly, 1-2 portions of fruit is healthier and lower cal pud than a choc bar or other junk. I wish some clever geneticist would develop a choc-flavoured creamy fruit.
Smile

BetsyBell · 01/04/2014 16:54

Mmmmm veg. Just pondering over plans with some chickpeas. I'm thinking garlic, thyme, parsley, salt & pepper, with tomatoes and sweet peppers roasted in olive oil, more garlic and thyme. Maybe some anchovies too, or feta. Plus olives and humus.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

And I guess I'll do some pasta and sausages to assuage those who aren't as into the veg as me. Heathens.

OP posts:
BetsyBell · 01/04/2014 16:55

I'd better check I've got some chickpeas!

OP posts:
Southeastdweller · 01/04/2014 16:59

I eat a lot of veg but limit fruit as I'm not convinced that fructose outweigh the other benefits of fruit though of course it's better than having fruit juice, which I avoid like the plague.

Lustig article here

This stood out to me from today's BBC online article:

Risk of death by any cause over the course of the study was reduced by 42% for seven or more (up to around 10 portions a day). Fresh vegetables had the strongest protective effect, followed by salad and then fruit.

BetsyBell · 01/04/2014 17:03

I also like fruit. All of the fruits. Raw, cooked, dried, whatever. I eat fruit instead of cakes and shite so that is a good thing. Unlike like junk food it doesn't set off a hunger response so it's easy to eat sensibly. And if you don't, at least it's nutritious. Win.

OP posts:
MazzleDazzle · 01/04/2014 17:06

Yes Errol it also bugs me that they umbrella fruit and veg. together!

I love veg. but can take or leave fruit. Recently I've started eating lots of spinach. It's such an easy way to eat leafy greens and keeps well in the fridge. Courgette ribbons instead of pasta sounds lovely! Do you steam them, Melanie?

I'm on FD2 of 3. It's pretty plain sailing so far! Could def. do this again if i had to. BUT the question is, after only 1 NFD, will I be up for a FD on Thurs? I think that will be the difficulty.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2014 18:01

Oh, Betsy your chickpea stew with all those veg roasted in olive oil & garlic ^^

I'm having a supper, unusually for me. Deciding between pasta chorizo, cheese and cheese or cheese fondue and flatbread.
Anyway, lots of melted cheese with something.
Grin
Glugging a carton of light cranberry juice, only 80 cals per litre, the only juice I drink.

Apologies to Mazzle on FD2 Blush
Btw: I food shop regularly and very sensibly on my Friday FD. Yes, I feel zen that evening.

tiggermummy70 · 01/04/2014 18:18

Hi Everyone,

I've not been able.to lurk for a week but I am on the last week of my research study. So planning first FD for Monday.
In 12 weeks I have lost 35lbs which is a great start to the year. I have around 20-30 lbs to reach my main weight goal.
Fitness goal is to run one lap around local parkrun without walking.

My NSV for today:- while girls had swimming lessons I did 20 mins on treadmill. I didn't stop. Never did that before... I have walked two half marathons in 3hrs 30 so I walk very quickly. But I hated running when I was young.

Southeastdweller · 01/04/2014 18:38

My experience is that most people vastly prefer fruit to veg and to extrapolate that I think some people will take this advice and absorb the headline into an 'It's OK to eat even more fruit now' mentality which wouldn't be that much of a problem if they weren't eating cakes, chocolate and so on but hardly anyone does that, of course. Throw in the mix the general ignorance and denial about fruit juice and the fact that some very popular foods are surprisingly high in sugar like most types of bread then it's all quite a murky situation.

My opinion is that to help achieve optimum health we ideally should be eliminating all kinds of refined sugars and minimising the natural kind. I agree with errol and Mazzle about being annoyed that the government have conflated both veg and fruit for this campaign Angry.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2014 18:44

Hi TiggerMummy, well done on your weight loss. You'll soon be part of the fasting gang !

You probably know this by now but:

  • Just before you start, take measurements as well as weight
  • Plan, shop and calorie count your FD meals in advance
  • stock up on teas, coffee, bovril etc

I'm sure you'll enjoy this WOE
Smile

DorisAllTheDay · 01/04/2014 18:51

That's interesting about the scales, Wombles. How do they work? I'm a bit puzzled about how they can work out your body fat just by someone standing on them.

On fruit and vegetables, I love fruit, but it now has a similar effect on me as any carby food - I can eat and eat and eat without stopping until there's nothing left. So if I buy four apples, for example, I'll eat the lot, I can't be happy with just one. This has got a lot worse in the last year or so. I used to be able to eat one or two apples at a time, but no more. And as for anything sweeter/more exotic, forget it! I can eat pounds of apricots or plums at a single sitting. So I'm trying to stick with vegetables which mostly don't have that effect, apart from raw white cabbage which for some reason I behave addictively around. I'm not convinced I have 7 portions a day most days though. I'm coming round to thinking there should be a sugar tax on added sugar in food and drink, with the revenue used to subsidise raw vegetables. It might focus the mind!

Today's FD hasn't been too hard. I've been aware of being hungry off and on, but it's all been survivable. I'm about to go and make tea - which is chunky soup with lots of veg.

Congratulations on your very impressive NSV, tigger.

Hope FD2 is going well, Mazzle, and anyone else fasting.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/04/2014 18:56

In the Independent link I think it did suggest that the Australian '5 veg plus 2 fruit' was a good idea.

And then there's the matter of portion size... on one thread there was something like 'I had a salad of lettuce, toms and spring onions so there's 3' ... I bet she didn't really have a 'portion' of spring onions. (or another one claiming garlic!!!). Then again the idea of a portion being 80g... 80g seems like an awful lot for some veg (esp peas).

Sod that. I think I'll go with 'try to cover at least half the plate with a mix of veg'.

womblesofwestminster · 01/04/2014 19:55

Thank you MetellaEstMater. Would you say it is worth the money? (Before I click 'checkout')...

tiggermummy70 · 01/04/2014 19:55

The study I have been on has a portion of most veg as 80g....

womblesofwestminster · 01/04/2014 19:56

Doris these particular scales send a (painless) electric current through your arms and legs. Electricity passes through fat slower than other tissue.