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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

The 5:2 thread number 41: Springing into March or marching into spring? Either way, more sunshine means easier fast days! Come and join us in getting healthier, the fast way.

999 replies

BetsyBell · 15/03/2014 11:04

The continuing thread for those of us following the 5:2 fast or other forms of fasting such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012 and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat normally - or approximately your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE - see explanation below). 4:3 is the same except you fast on 3 days in the week. Alternate-day fasting (ADF) is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. 16:8 is another form where you stick to only eating in an 8 hour window each day, therefore fasting for 16 hours each day.

By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low; around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website or app many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a TDEE calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

NFD = Non fast day.

NSV/LSV = Non scale victory/Lifestyle (change) victory.

Michael Mosley has a website to accompany his book on the subject. Please go check it out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

Lurkers and new starters: please just jump in and post - you'll find a lot of support here and we’re a friendly bunch.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

Other Threads
All our previous threads can be found by browsing through the fasting section of the site.

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s resource for some of the tips and links that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

Inspirational: eatriskier’s thread has some lovely inspiring stories which are worth checking out if you want some motivation to get started or keep going through a plateau. Please add your own too.

Recipes: frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has an incredibly informative and helpful exercise and fitness thread for discussion and advice on combining 5:2 with an exercise regime.

Maintaining: If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Other links
This is a BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon - link to that programme here.

This Telegraph article comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.

This blog post gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

This link nicely demonstrates that there are many ‘right’ body shapes and types, because what we are actually aiming for is low body fat for fitness and health.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant. It also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

If you’ve been researching IF you may have come across this article which is highly negative about women with BMI in the normal range. Here’s our response to that:

  • With a healthy BMI, those who want to be leaner will usually find weight and waist loss to be much slower than for overweight folk, since, less fat and inches are available to lose.
  • The women with healthy BMIs already had healthier blood sugar than the men in the study. Hence nothing really needed improving.
  • Women who have had health problems on IF were NOT doing 5:2, but the
much tougher ADF or 16:8, ^combined with heavy lifting (often multiples of body weight) AND were often starting from already ultra-low BF 12-16% range.^

-Many were already missing periods or had EDs before IF, due to the low BF %, over-training and over-stressing.

5:2 is a gentler form of IF than ADF or Leangains and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence from longterm 5:2ers, now with healthy BMI, who are continuing to have very positive results and experiences on this WOE.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful.

A HUGE THANK YOU to Greeneggsandnicht for putting together all this info and resources into one concise OP text, much appreciated by so many 5:2ers!

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this way of life!

And lastly, a few FAQs/Healthy tips :

  • WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • Hot drinks: no limits on tea or coffee any day, just note any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  • FDs: concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Old hands skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.
  • NFDs: no rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar, artificial sweeteners, fizzy drinks, junk food. A few treats per week are good though! Aim to average TDEE over NFDs each week, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • CLENCH for health: men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily.
  • Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, have EDs, any illness, even a bad cold. When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So eat to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks.
  • Check with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate).
  • BREASTFEEDERS: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • SLEEP: everybody needs enough sleep, or weight loss may be slowed.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss if you you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat. HIIT works well with 5:2/IF.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 12:01

Errol I totally agree about the need to build up muscle to help tighten skin, especially anyone who loses more than a stone and / or is 40+.

One of the reasons I recommend starting with 5:2, rather than ADF, is because the 1lb loss per week is an amount that skin elasticity can normally cope with this.

Naturally, someone who doesn't lose on 5:2, for whatever reason, might then decide to do ADF, just to achieve the 1lb.

Megrim · 31/03/2014 12:07

Have you got any exercises for building up muscle on my face? Or am I just destined to look like a wrinkly prune Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 12:20

Chocupid Caffeine can help mobilise the body fat stores for fuel.
The effect starts after about 10 mins and lasts 45-60 mins.
You need a good caffeine slug, so at least a double espresso, or a specialist sports caffeine drink. Some people need a higher dose.
Also, it works much better for high intensity exercise.

Lou As above, no way to spot reduce fat, you have to reduce overall %.
Thigh fat is not a health issue. Be happy - around meno the fat suddenly wants to concentrate around the tum.

btw: the gym "body scans" have the same 3% error margin as the US navy body fat calculator in the Exercise Thread OP .
The only really accurate measure is the high tech "bod pod" Horizon used, £250 per time I think, where you climb nearly naked into a sealed "casket" !

Complex carbs: potatoes, flaxmeal mainly
Also oat bran, quinoa, brown rice, whole-grain low carb bread, fresh egg pasta from the deli.
I've found on training days I can eat big portions of rice pud, not exactly complex.
Weekends are when I raid the pud trolley of a good restaurant or deli - not great carbs, but great taste
Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 12:25

megrim I wish ! Grin

Souper · 31/03/2014 12:34

Hello, new to the thread here, but not new to 5:2. I had really good success with it about 18 months ago but then I got pregnant and had to stop. Baby is here now and is 9 weeks old. I am EBF so I have been reading with interest the experiences of those of you who are successfully BF and fasting. Hoping I can do the same!

I currently weigh 88 kg and aiming for 70kg which will put me in middle of healthy BMI.

Today is my first fast day so just eating my first meal which is some green soup. I did some exercise this morning too so feeling very virtuous and motivated.

ErrolTheDragon · 31/03/2014 12:45

Hello super! starting an FD with exercise does give you that virtuous motivated feeling, and also gets you nice and warm - fasting can make you feel a bit chilly if you have to be sedentary.

After my exercise and bath I'm toasty, need to go and get properly dressed before I chill as I need to sit and work this afternoon.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 13:20

Welcome Souper. Great start with fasted training. You are hardcore Smile

Chocupid · 31/03/2014 14:10

Given up today, migraine has got the better of me.
Will try again tomorrow.

Thanks for the info Bigchoc

Souper · 31/03/2014 14:42

It does make me cold, you're right! Currently sitting here with a hot water bottle on my lap. When I was fasting before the baby I used to do it on days I was at work, as I found it much easier to do when I was really busy. The fasting also helped me to be productive at work, as I found I had lots of energy - almost a 'high' feeling - and I would buzz around feeling great. Looking forward to getting that again but I'm not sure what I am going to channel it into on maternity leave!

womblesofwestminster · 31/03/2014 15:19

wow, how was it?

I was ill which made it quite easy Blush Still haven't ate so going to force myself soon.

Am I right that zero calorie fasts are the 'gold standard'? I felt dizzy and weird when I went to bed. Don't think I could do that every FD.

Helliecopter · 31/03/2014 15:29

Hi folks
I'm on a FD today and doing well. Do

Helliecopter · 31/03/2014 15:34

What? Sorry!

I'm doing huge amounts of housework as the inlaws have both DDs with them for a couple of hours. I am such a slattern! It's a dusty mess. But at least I've got happy kids eh?!

Without effing broadband at home again, thanks so much O2 for selling my custom to Sky. That's worked well. Not! So I'm really struggling not being able to check in with you here - come to rely on the support and knowledge here so much more than I'd realised! Thanks :)

Will catch up on the posts when we get our new router, hopefully!

Good luck everyone else fasting today. We can have it tomorrow!!

Octopus37 · 31/03/2014 16:09

FD today, absolutely starving, headachey, moody, hate the whole thing as have hardly lost any weight since Ii started and this is my fifth week, think I have lost 3 pounds, two of which were during the first week. Gutted, may change weigh in to post fast day as at least that should be less and should therefore cheer me up and make me keep going. Off for some Diet Cherry Coke. Also terrified that if I ever stop 5:2, I will get absolutely huge which I know is probably irrational.

MrsFlorrick · 31/03/2014 16:32

Hello. (Waves) still here. Have yet to fully catch up so be back later on.

Grin
TalkinPeace · 31/03/2014 16:59

wombles
if you start getting dizzy, drink more water
BUT
well done - you've given your system a shock that will do it no harm at all

fasting today too.
Ate MUCH TOO MUCH at the weekend - three large meals and a load of cider on Saturday. But it was fun.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 17:06

wombles A few folk like to do occasional zero fasts because they think it brings health benefits.
From what Varady says, however, the 25% calorie FD is the gold standard, because it is the best combination of weight loss and muscle retention

Obviously when ill, don't force yourself to eat.
Anyway, the occasional zero-cal FD is not going to dissolve your muscle.
However, on a regular basis, especially for ADF, I would recommend using your full 25%.

Personally, I regard muscle retention as vital for fitness, future health and maintaining TDEE. Therefore, since reading her studies, I no longer do zero cal FDs.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2014 17:16

Octopus Sorry to hear your struggles.
May we ask what is your age, height & weight and your goal weight ?

FDs:

  • Are you eating protein and veg only ?
  • Some folk find any starches or fruit can cause FD problems (insulin metabolism)

NFDs:

  • Have you started counting cals on NFDs as well ?
Many overweight people cannot judge appropriate portions, hence seriously over-eat.

TDEE

  • Set TDEE to sedentary and do NOT eat back any exercise cals. People usually seriously overestimate cals urnt
  • If you already don't eat back exercise cals, then your real TDEE may be lower than calculated value
The calculated value is only an average and your metabolism may be far from average, due to medication, medical conditions, previous dieting, etc.
Octopus37 · 31/03/2014 17:53

Hi, I am 39, 5ft5 tall, weigh 8st5ish, know that sounds light but I've small boned, makes me dress size 10 (vanity 8 if I'm lucky) so not that thin, my goal is 8st, although would be happy to maintain at 8st2. TBH haven't been calorie counting on NFD's and have sometimes struggled not to binge a bit but it is something I'm working on. I don't do any formal exercise due to time constraints as have young children, work part time, but I walk everywhere as cannot drive and my job isn't a sit down job so I consider myself to be fairly active. In recent years (due to running round after young kids) haven't had to worry about my weight much, lost some when the kids were small as was so busy although ate like a trough, have got a reasonable metabolism normally, although I notice that if I'm ever lazy (ie don't move as much for whatever reason), that tends to cause weight gain more than overeating IYSWIM. Started 5:2 as my weight had been creeping up, got to 8st8, which in my mind was not ok as to me that put me I the 8 and a half to 9 category, all psychological I know. Suppose I'm fed up of struggling with everything generally, I'm self-employed and I've had a work lull the last few weeks (although I have been assured that lots of work is coming my way soon), so have been scrapping around for bits of work, not all of which has been successful. My MIL (who BTW is not slim) finds it easy to not eat all day, although she does eat a big meal at night and that in itself pissed me off when I talked to her about 5:2 yesterday. Also have to really work at being patient with my kids and finding time for them, patience to play etc - know this isn't any different to anybody, but right now I'm sick of finding things hard whilst other people seem to find thing easier if that makes sense. Sorry for rant, going to weigh in tomorrow and take that reading and going forward weigh in on a Tuesday as might get a more accurate (more self-esteem, lighter) result.

Octopus37 · 31/03/2014 17:55

By the way, I eat soup on fast days, usually with chicken in, ready bought so can check the calorie count, although today bought what was on offer. Had Celeriac & Spinach soup for lunch (204 cals) and Have Tomato and Basil soup for dinner (200 cals). May also allow myself a yoghurt or 1 piece of dry toast to take me up to 500 cals.

Ruthemmaherself · 31/03/2014 18:02

Hello there again.
Wow this thread moves fast, finding it hard to keep up!
Just checking in - first week of 5:2 and although weight went up and down I have lost 0.5kg this morning!

Souper - I'm ebf too and my little one didn't seem to notice any changes last week at all, she just fed as normal. I had to drink a ridiculous amount on my fast days, though! Hope it works for you as well. Not sure I exactly had a fasting high, but I did suddenly start organising kitchen cupboards (very out of character) so maybe that was it!

TwittyMcTwitterson · 31/03/2014 18:09

Helliecopter!!!! If your broadband was with O2 and got moved to sky did they tell you about free tv????

I pay £15.40 for full tv package excluding sports and movies and phone and broadband. For one year! All because I told them I was leaving. This offer is only available to O2 customers. Was July/August last year though.

FD was a fail today. I had a portion of chips and a 100g bag of buttons which really upset my stomach. Off to the gym when DD is asleep.

Not2bObvious · 31/03/2014 19:03

FD today, broke my fast about 30 mins ago. It was tough for a couple of hours around lunchtime, then relatively ok after a bovril. Pretty decent meal but I need my mind to catch up with my belly or vv? Not sure which way the info needs to flowGrin! Still feel a bit peckish. Thing I'll do an hour or 2 of paperwork, keep the hands busy.
Welcome back to 5:2 Souper, congrats on the baby. You sound in the zone!

Eatriskier · 31/03/2014 19:21

Got DD from nursery. No nap today. She's been insane. She flew down the stairs. I need chocolate or wine. Or both. Gah.

zedzedzed · 31/03/2014 19:41

Hi all.

Baaaad weekend, Sat and Sun both big family events, both at least 3k in food and wine...totally worth it but ended up feeling heavy as hell.

Really enjoyed today's fast, pretty strange to say that but totally true, will maybe add a mini-fast this week so last week's total is a loss not a maintain IYSWIM.

Well done all you Monday starvers, seeya again Thurs and maybe for a mini on Friday.

womblesofwestminster · 31/03/2014 19:53

the 25% calorie FD is the gold standard, because it is the best combination of weight loss and muscle retention

wow really? Muscle retention is very important to me. I thought I was being a smart ass by going zero cals. Ooops.

BigChoc Did you read the sumo article I linked to? Sumo wrestlers skip breakfast and also exercise with an empty tum. Apparently this helps them bulk up and cling onto their weight Confused