4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

Thoroughly enjoying this thread, thank you.

DS (14) has a ‘new’ (2008, iirc) violin from Andrew Sutherland (Steep Hill Strings, Lincoln) and it’s beautiful in every respect. Andrew was SO helpful. Searching was a long process, but worth it when you find ‘the one’, even if it’s ‘only’ the one for now (ish).

Hello Zoolatry, thank you for your lovely note. I love hearing other's success story of finding 'the one' (even if it's for now ). It helps me keep going and dreaming.

I am sure someone else named Andres Sutherland before. I do remember I checked his website. He sounds very passionate about violin making. Did you buy a bow from him too?

DS is enjoying boys' holiday with his dad this weekend. We'll start visiting luthiers once he's back. The second round of our grand tour (of violin shops) is about to start.

Oh I forgot to update...

I am not sure how many of you are actually being able to follow me without any difficulty. It must be very confusing which one is which. Anyhow, hopefully you remember I returned the £6k English handmade violin the other day.

His usual rate is beyond our reach really. So £6k was already a generous offer. It's well made, and the teacher seemed to be happy with it (in fact she bought her DD's violin from him years ago). Still too expensive, but we knew it was a good deal for the violin. But we returned.

However, he rang me out of blue and told me he thought DS was very natural holding his violin and really believed it would suit him perfectly and DS would benefit from playing his violin. And offered us a charming price. Still expensive, but charming enough for the quality. He then said, no pressure, just think about it, talk to the teacher again.

I've slightly lost track, Kutik - is the Cardiff one now out of the picture totally?
The offer from the JD seems like a good way of relieving some of the pressure.
I wonder if we were too quick to decide on DS's cello but he does love it, as do we and his teacher, so maybe we were just lucky to find 'the one' quickly?
We still need to choose a bow but think we may travel further than Cardiff Violins for that.

Hi Kutik

We bought the bow separately. It’s a codabow Diamond SX, which fits the bill for DS - good but not terrifying when at school!

Good luck with the continued hunt and keep us posted.
Z

DS's new violin sounds lot better after three weeks' play. The sound post setter ordered hasn't arrived yet. We plan to move sound post further away to see what happens. DS played Vivaldi's Winter in school concert with the new violin and the metal sound of E string sounds startling.

I'm enjoying this thread and only wish I had a child with such passion, patience and ability!

I'm interested in the references made to German factory made instruments. We were recently in the market for a 4/4 cello for our DD - DH heard of an auction nearby and told me he was going to go and look at cellos for her. His only expertise in string instruments was getting to grade 3 violin as a child (and failing!!!...). Anyway he was lucky to talk to a restorer there who helped point out some quality cellos which required no work. Inevitably, come the auction all the named ones he had shortlisted went above our budget. There was just one more instrument he'd shortlisted which was unnamed and a total gamble. We got it for just under a thousand pounds including commission. It is a beautiful instrument and turns out it's factory made, German, c1910. We were very lucky, but our experience now is that auction instruments typically sell for around 40-50% of what retailers charge, so the auction rooms are the places to be hunting if you want a bargain! We are now after a grand piano......

Floot, it's not out of the picture totally. In fact we talk about their violin quite a lot (theirs was DS's favourite really). We keep in regular contact with the Cardiff people. I am glad you told me about them. They understand what we are looking for and are very keen to help us find 'the one'. They are also helping me build good relationship with violin makers. We may visit again or they may send us a couple of selected violins in a few weeks time.

I don't think you were too quick to decide, Floot. Sometimes you know. We were like that for DS's 1/2 and 3/4. Why are you thinking to travel further than Cardiff? They seem to have lots of selections.

Zoolatry, glad you got a bow that matches to his violin. I have no idea about bow. We were supposed to be hunting a bow during the holiday according to my initial plan. But life never goes as planned!

BettertoChange, great news that the violin starts opening up. I am intrigued to hear your quest of mastering sound post adjustments! Which strings are you using? Do you use all the same maker?

MidLifeCrisis007, what's a great story! Thanks so much for sharing!

I think your DH did a brilliant job. By judging what I saw and learnt, German c1910 factory made in good playable condition without any obvious damage sound very reliable and a great choice for the value. You could have easily paid £2k -3k if you have bought it from a shop.

I had a meeting with Amati the other day. They did advised me to start looking auction violins. However I am too coward to try that yet! A luthier kindly looks for a violin for DS and I trust him how he prices (he never ever charges too much). So I'll leave him to do that for me for now... Is your DD a pianist? Ground piano hunting sounds so exciting (but frightening too)!

Kutik, DD also now has an Andrew Sutherland violin, 3/4. It has a lovely sound, better than her last violin. Her teacher in Grantham uses him so we went with that. I don't have your stamina!

Kutik I've just caught up on this thread - wow, your stamina and dedication is truly amazing!!
I've been searching for my DDs 4/4 violin too... we tried a few from John Gosling (Newark) and then Andrew Sutherland (Lincoln) but couldn't find anything within our budget (less then £2k) but yesterday went to Phelps in London and found one that my daughter has fallen in love with.... just waiting for approval from her teacher! I play violin too (post-Grade8) but have been impressed at how my DD (age 10 and working towards G8) has immediately known what she likes / not likes along the way. What has been harder for us is that she has a gorgeous 3/4 violin that is hard to match, and we have struggled to part exchange it because no-one seems interested in expensive 3/4 violins.
Hope you get to the end of your journey soon!

Niggle and Musicdoc, nice to see you here. Thanks for dropping your words. I'm so glad you have found a violin for your DDs.

Musicdoc, you seemed to travel quite far (from Lincoln to London). Do you have easy access to Phelps? Or are you going to use a local luthier when any maintenance is needed? I have a few interesting contacts (including Andrew Sutherland now!) but am hesitating to make a visit as they are all far and further. Wondering if I should just stay with the local luthiers who I know already as a way of narrowing down my search. Otherwise it's getting too overwhelming.

DS is happy to visit new places no matter how far they are and carry on our search. On the other hand, I am my losing stamina and dedication...

losing my stamina and dedication!

Kutik We live in Lincoln but visit London quite a lot... Phelps is just a 10 minute journey from where we stay in London, but we also know Andrew Sutherland and will probably use him if any work needs doing on the violin. I hadn't thought about the importance of having a particular luthier - having met a few it is hard to make an informed choice as they all seem to think their own work is the best and I'm pretty uneducated when it comes to luthier-type stuff!

I am SO late to your thread Kutik, but reading it with interest!

Nothing to add other than we have benefitted greatly from a Berlin factory made violin (circa 1900's) bought by....yep, going to throw in another luthier in for you here - William John (Brentford), if you haven't already seen him/dismissed him off your prospect list.

Bill maintains it yearly, was not a bust the bank purchase (£800) but great for DD's level when bought at 10, with the view that it would see her through to HE if she were to take violin further, and at any time he would buy back at full purchase price. She's not about to let it go any day soon as she loves it. Then bought a lovely bow to compliment it...

Good luck with your search!

And here is yet another.... Oxford Violins.

Website here: oxfordviolins.com
Local news article: http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/business/profiles/10408888.IncredibleStringg_Band/

Thanks for sharing such an interesting article, oxcat1. Oxford is quite a trek but this is again not the first time to hear about the shop so may be worth travelling!

ealing, thanks for popping in! I always liked the sound of your description of miniealing's violin and was wondering where you got it from. I know William John. Could I ask you how you got to know him and how much you normally pay for the annual maintenance? Are you totally happy with his service?

all seem to think their own work is the best
Agree!

He was recommended to me by my DD’s ‘home’ violin teacher, having been her luthier for years (she is my long term neighbour, now friend and long servicing professional violist, past LSO, teaches at Trinity Laban etc). I find him very relaxed, straight and honest. And more importantly, local to me so I can go see him any time if there’s an issue. He only charges for things he replaces; which so far from great set up, it’s been the finger board as she wasn’t the greatest at keeping her nails short. Mm.

He doesn’t hold stock apart from the odd few amongst his own made violins and says if they’re not right for your needs.He is one of the few trained luthiers for strads (I believe).

Our search was no where near as extensive as yours kutik, but did take a few loans from different, well known places and he told me exactly what he thought of each and why.

Good luck, your dedication on this pursuit is amazing!

Btw I think we just got lucky. Right timing etc that he had the perfect violin for her...

And finally (making up for rarely posting), her bow was circa £400. A lovely pernambuco bought elsewhere that gets re-haired by Matthew Coltman, whom I think you are already familiar with.

Kutik DH is really chuffed that you thought he did well to source our DD's cello at auction (It was an Amati auction btw...).

In a really annoying development he's just shown me up in the hunt for an instrument for DS1 (not a stringed instrument I might add...). I've been on the look out for a particular instrument for a while but they are like hens' teeth. There has never been one sold on Ebay.... and trust me I've been looking. Having announced today that we'll need to bite the bullet and buy new so DS1 can get on with working towards his diploma, DH spots one on Ebay. WTF? How did that happen? I've been all over every auction site in the world and HE finds it. It's not fair! Now I've just got to hope we win it.... reserve not yet met!

ealing, thanks for all the info. We visited William John a while ago. He is a great chap. DS really liked him and also his violin. We nearly bought his violin, but again 'it wasn't quite right' so in the end we returned it... (sigh...) However, the teacher seemed to like his violin, and he was one of those who made a charming offer, so I haven't totally let the option go. DS is also keen to visit him again. But, DS tried all the violins (within our budget) and picked one, kept it for a long enough time, then decided to return it. I am not sure if there is any point taking him back there. William John kindly said he would be happy to have DS to go through his violins again. So the doors are still open!

Yes, I know Matthew Coltman. Another lovely chap. We are thinking to go back to him for a bow (but sadly we are not at the stage yet ).

MidLifeCrisis007, I am really impressed by your DH's ability of spotting a right instrument! I know it's not fair! Bu really, could I please borrow a tiny bit of his luck!??! Fingers crossed for the happy bidding!

Kutik73 the strings came with the violin. I don't know the brand. Tried to change to Dominant, no good and changed back. The violin seems opening up and sounds better everyday, or just used to the sound day by day. I wonder if we need adjust the sound post when we receive the setter.

I wouldn't mess around with a sound post unless you know what you are doing, or are experimenting on a piece-of-junk violin. Adjusting sound posts is an art, but you probably know that already---

I would say be careful with the f hole not to be damaged while you are fiddling with the setter inside!

We have quite a few violins at home but most of them are going to be returned. We will keep two - the Old French and a newly collected modern Polish. DS's teacher was not very keen on the Old French due to the unbalanced sound and surface noise which were supposed to be sorted by a luthier. Will see what she would say. She kindly offered to see the violins this Friday.

We are receiving two more violins next week. We had one of them before but returned due to some (perhaps unnecessary) concerns but DS always ALWAYS liked the violin and still talks about it. After exchanging many emails with the dealer, and also consulting other luthiers I know, we decided to have a look at it again. This time, the dealer arranged to send us another violin made by the same maker also, hence we are receiving two of his. Deeply appreciate the thoughtful gesture of the kind and patient dealer (and the maker).

I am secretly hoping it will still be DS's No.1. Partly because I am keen to support a new maker who is quietly doing a great job, and also am willing to build a good relationship with such a committed dealer.