4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

Ooohhh this sounds exciting! What is the violin DS liked? Who is the maker?

Are you still looking for luthier recommendations? I know one who is absolutely fabulous and I am happy to recommend

Who is it colleysmill? I think the Kutik73 is going to compile a list eventually, and there are quite a few interested people following this thread...

claraschu, it's an Old French. It has the sound DS likes but I do have a little concern (again)! I am getting the second opinion on this.

colleysmill, YES PLEASE! Recommendations are always welcome!!

I think old and without a name, but with a lovely sound would be the way to go, so this seems very promising! If his teacher likes the sound and you get a reliable second opinion about value and condition, I don't see how you can go too far wrong.

The violin I previously mentioned I liked (the teacher also) but DS was not sure therefore returned was exactly what you described. Old and without label with a lovely sound and in great condition, and it's 'only' £4k. The luthier was keen to take DS's 3/4 so it could have been a really attractive deal. It's from one of the nearest shops also so it would have been easy to maintain the relationship and pop in anytime when needed...

Whereas B&N is not easy to get from where we live. And, the violin sounds nice but a lot more battered and tired-looking than the £4k one which was absolutely in min condition.

Personally I don't see huge difference in sound between the £6k+ and the £4k.... Tempted to go back and compare the sound again!!!

I use a chap in Lincoln called Andrew Sutherland (Google steep hill strings) really knowledgeable, quite relaxed and done some excellent repairs for me. I've had friends who have purchased instruments from him and been very pleased. I believe he does some work with the strad society so is quite highly regarded :)

Should add people come from far and wide to see him and fly instruments in to him from all over the world so it won't be unusual anyone not local to contact him :)

Brilliant! Thank you for sharing, colleysmill!

I would definitely go back and check out the £4K one again

I know... I may go back. But it depends on how things turn out this weekend. The Old French from B&N does sound lovely. The picky DS seems to be happy with it. We'll see what the teacher say tomorrow. I am also collecting one from Martin Swan on Sunday. I am interested in his violins and it has a pretty price tag (under £3k).

Expensive business buying string instruments :)

I would sell it to DS that it's not his forever instrument but is just for the next few years so therefore it is better to get the cheaper one-which TBH sounds perfect for his stage of playing and life with tube trips etc. A £6k violin plus expensive bow on top would have me having kittens in a 10yr old hands!

MsJolly, I've already tried to sell it to DS a few times. He knows our financial resource is not endless and he understands and agrees with the concept of getting something reasonable that ticks very necessary boxes. He just doesn't want the £4k one, period. So I guess I have to accept it's not going to come back to us. After all, he has to like the violin no matter how much it costs.

We've got an alternative violin to the £4k one now as I collected one from Martin Swan today. It's less than £3k, very basic, but good enough for learning with balanced tones and playability.

DS still prefers the B&N one but agrees to give a go with the Martin's violin for a couple of days to test out. Unfortunately we couldn't compare the sound between two violins as the A string on the B&N one is about to break! The teacher advised us not to tune the A string as it's really about to snap. I've got to sort it out somehow (but unwilling to buy a string as we may not buy this violin...).

By the way, Martin Swan was a delightful gentleman. He asked me about DS a lot. He was obviously very keen to understand his customer's needs. He was not pushy at all, instead gave me very honest, frank opinion/advice. He said DS may not be satisfied with the violin he brought today. But he was also confident that it was a great violin for learning point of views (balanced, healthy and playable). He was genuine, helpful and very laid-back.

Any updates? Hope things are going well.

Well...., quite a few things happened. I took some violins for valuation and got 2nd and 3rd opinions, and we end up having no preference at the moment...

We had two violins DS liked but the teacher disagreed. The teacher seemed to like the English handmade one but DS wouldn't agree. DS is still thinking of the violin with the dangerously thin front panel, and the teacher is still wondering about the £4k non-label German one. I am thinking to get both of them again to see if any of them will work!

The £4k one was one of the first violins we picked and liked. The teacher said we may have felt we had to try more but it may have been the one after all. It could be!

In the meantime I got contacted by jd telling me they received a very nice violin which they were happy for DS to use. DS could keep it until he is 18 if he wants, or return when it's not needed any more. I am getting it sometime this week. If DS likes it, then we don't need to feel pressured to make an immediate purchase.

Oh, that sounds like an excellent option. If you have the borrowed violin, you can wait until something perfect falls into your lap. Your son will also have a better idea of what he wants after he has been playing on a full sized violin for a while.

Old German factory made violins tend to be a good option- lovely, personal sound. My mother had one she played for her whole life, which my son has inherited. It is very sweet and dark, not very loud, but a touching voice.

Yes, I agree about Old German factory made violins. But when it costs more or less nearer to Old French with equivalent quality, I feel hesitation to jump in as the appearing point of Old German factory made violins is the quality for the value (for me).

I am talking about the £4k one. Yes, it's more reasonable than other violins we've been looking, but £4k is still quite a lot of money. It is in great condition and has nice sound but it is Old German factory made and no label. I am pretty much sure we will struggle to sell it for the same amount when we want to upgrade.

However, if DS loves the sound absolutely and completely, I am happy to buy it knowing we will lose some money. At least he will have fun playing on the violin with the sound he loves for a good few years. We may also end up keeping it as a spare so the selling value may not be a problem in that case.

In general, French violins seem more two dimensional to me, so they often have a lovely sound, but you feel like the violin has a sound which you produce, whereas the German violins seem more like they let you create your own sound through them. I know this is a generalisation, and must be taken with a big pinch of salt; it is just my impression.

I would ask the opinion of your son's teacher again, and perhaps another professional player who has a reasonable amount of experience of instruments in this price range. If you decide to buy the German violin you can make an offer which is lower than £4,000. Talk to the dealer about your concerns over resale, and ask if the owner is likely to accept a lower offer. Maybe the dealer is the owner- I don't remember if you said.

I bought a soundpost setter. Next step is try to adjust the new 4/4 violin sound post and see if I can get a good sound for my DS. I took the violin to JD, the tutor said the G D A strings sound good. E string sounds weird. Few weeks no violin lessons during Easter and it's good time for DS to learn how to make good sound not by practising bowing but by adjusting soundpost .

That's very brave, BettertoChange! Please let us know how he gets on with it. I am at the so-proud-of-myself-for-replacing-a-string level so adjusting a sound post is a way beyond my comfort zone!

I am returning the English handmade violin today. DS didn't change his mind so we can't keep it any longer.

Just a quick update.

Collected a violin from jd today. They kindly popped a bow also in the violin case, so DS can leave his terrible bow for now and use this nicer one instead. The violin is a Klotz School. Very narrow and light. Has nice sound.

Currently DS likes the old French. However the teacher was not sure. She told me some concerns so I spoke to the luthier if he could sort out the problems. He said 'most likely!'. So we are taking the violin back to him next week. Fingers crossed.

Meanwhile DS is actually still thinking of the one with the thin panel. The luthier confirmed there is nothing problem with the panel. They are actually very very nice, trying to build a good lasting relationship with us. They are willing to show us some other violins they think DS would like (as now they know DS's taste). We are very much interested in their proposals. It may depend on the timing though. If the problems with the French violin is sorted before we see their violins we may just go for the French one.

I felt we were stuck without a solution a while ago but start to feel we are moving forward, very very slowly, but at least moving somewhere.

This is a really good thread (a bit thrilling and terrifying).

Out of nosiness, is it very expensive to insure the sort of instruments that you're looking at? My children are much younger (I have a son aged 6 and a daughter aged 4) and I can't imagine my son being in charge of an expensive instrument but that may change.

Insurance is not expensive. We use Lark, and they are good, I think, though my husband is the one who actually deals with them.