4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

disorganised, actually I think many people visit only one or two trustworthy places. I got some eye rolling reaction because of our ever-extending visits!! So don't worry, have a good time at Woodbridge. Good luck!

We are happy with DS's new violin so if he is not going down to the pro route it will likely be his forever violin.

se22, I would be intrigued to hear your thoughts on Stringers. I was meaning to visit but didn't in the end. I am curious as they seem to have plenty royal customers.

NeverEver, I am sorry sometimes I avoided clear explanation for reasons but I tried and am trying to be as open as I can be so I can share what I learnt/experienced with people like you. I am so glad that this thread could be of any use.

I am very happy to share any information I've collected but something is better to avoid discussing in public. Please PM me if anyone need to get more specific information/details you think I may know or can be of any help.

I can say something about Stringers:

We made an appointment to see violins of a certain price range and some just beyond it, and they were happy to obliged. We were taken to a nice big room upstairs with 2 violins of our price range set up, and one that's the next range up. The woman who showed us the violin let DS play all the violins, trying different shoulder rests and different bows. And she also played for him to hear. And when we asked to try more of a range she was happy to bring more out for us to try. I would say the service is pretty good. We took one home to try, but DS's teacher didn't like it very much. We took it back and they weren't unhappy about it at all. In short: lots to try, great service, but we just didn't find what we want.

Someone mentioned this place to me but we didn't get round to trying: www.thwaites.com/

Great info, thanks NeverEver. I spoke to them on the phone several times and they were always friendly and helpful so they certainly left a good impression on me. But DS's teacher was not keen, only because she didn't like what her pupils brought to show her in the past. To be fair, the blame could be the pupil's rather than Stringer's. We picked a wrong one from many lovely selections during our hunting game too! I know a few who go to Stringer whenever they need something. They surely do a good job to have such LOYAL customers (just realised I did it again..., royal = Loyal...).

Never heard of Thwaites but looks interesting. Quite a trek for us though. Wondering if they have good bows!

Another place where we got a cello and various other bits from is Andrew Riley Violins. He is always very nice and helpful. I buy my bows and strings from him. But DS didn't like the violins he let him try. He has a small room for trying too. (Maybe more but I didn't poke my nose too hard round the back of the shop. )

Andrew Riley! I contacted the shop and arranged a visit, but had to cancel it, so didn't visit in the end. Wonder what kind of violins they would have shown us... They are the same people as The String Zone, right? Never shopped yet but I hear their pricing is very competitive.

DS hates his crappy bow with passion but no time for visiting shops/testing out at the moment. Too much hustle just before exam/audition. So it'll be in July when we can start shopping around. I'm thinking to make a short clip of comparing bows on YouTube if any of you is interested (have to persuade DS to contribute though, I can't produce any decent sound to make the comparison possible).

Stringzone are reasonable but personally I prefer the experience of wand shopping in an actual shop

We go to the shop for wands but order strings online.

Let me explain what happened during our hunt.

We found a lovely handmade violin made by an unknown Irish maker. The teacher liked the sound too so we decided to go for it. But just before buying, I happened to show the violin to several luthiers. The first one was just by accident, then for the rest I showed them actively to get their opinions.

Luthier 1:
(as soon as he saw it), 'Oh, it's Chinese, It's not handmade neither. It got cheap spray varnish. Nice sound, but Chinese violins have nice sound, very clear and bright, like this one.'
I had no problem with Chinese violins, but as it was not what I was told by the dealer, I felt very uncomfortable and confused. However, later I got to know the maker and he was not Chinese but Irish and he makes handmade violins as the dealer told us. I felt a bit resentful towards Luthier 1 for a while because I thought he may have deliberately told me false information to put me off buying the violin. But I've changed my view since and I now think he was probably genuinely telling me what he thought and was only trying to help me.

Luthier 2:

'I don't think it's Chinese, I think it's a well made handmade violin. It doesn't look like a typical Irish violin though. The varnish doesn't look spray one neither. I think it's got proper oil varnish. Lovely sound. Wait, the front panel looks so thin, let me check the thickness. (he checked using an equipment) Oh, it's so thin. That may be why it sounds so nice then. But it will die eventually. The sound wouldn't last. Also, it's so fragile. It will easily clash. Return this immediately. Don't get involved in such a violin. Too risky.'
He was the one I probably trust most for his honesty. I know him for a long time and he's been always very open and honest.

Luthier 3:
(He just laughed as soon as he saw the violin but then said he wouldn't like to criticise other makers' creation so didn't say anything. So I asked what he would think of the front panel. Then he laughed louder as if my comment was a spot-on. He hinted his disagreement with the panel's thickness but still avoided to comment the details.) 'I just advise you, return this. Don't buy. No way.'

Luthier 1 & 3 knew we were also considering their violins to purchase but we picked the Irish one over theirs. I also had a violin from Luthier 2 which they bought from auction thinking of DS's needs but DS was not keen on the sound and we'd already told him we weren't buying the violin. So there was no violin we were considering to purchase from Luthier 2 at the time.

Those were in Feb. As some of you may recall, I returned the violin, and later the dealer checked and confirmed it's a totally healthy violin but then we decided not to take any risk and instead continued our hunt elsewhere. However, during our hunt we encountered the Irish maker's violin at two reputable places. DS tried and liked them. But he always preferred the one he had back in Feb. I asked both luthiers their opinion on the violin and the maker.

Luthier 4 was actually a shop assistant/violinist (not luthier) and didn't know about the maker/violin very much. He just said it's a nice violin.

Luthier 5:
(I told him we were about to buy the other violin made by the same maker but returned as the front panel was too thin) 'I would be very surprised if it is true as I think he is a good violin maker. His setting is not great so I need to re-set all to maximise the sound but the violin itself is fantastic. We haven't put this violin out for sale yet as we need to sort out the setting first.'

Luthier 5 is actually a very well established luthier in London. In fact, Luthier 1 advised me to take the Irish violin to this guy for his opinion in Feb (which I didn't, as I felt I had enough negative opinions from other luthiers already). His words gave us confidence to re-consider the Irish violin again so we contacted the dealer. The dealer sent us two violins made by the Irish maker, one of which was the one we had before. Meanwhile Luthier 5 had set up the violin and kindly suggested that we would try all three at his shop. We tried and DS still liked the violin he tried in Feb. So we finally decided to purchase it. We'd learnt that there were ten different violins for ten different people. Some people don't like ours but we like it and that's okay.

However, this was what happened yesterday....

DS's chin rest was loose so I decided to take it to a luthier just because the luthier was in the same building as I was at the time. I'd never dealt with him before but I knew he works for lots of serious musicians and came with strong recommendation as a very trustworthy luthier whose main intention is helping young musicians rather than making profit... I was meaning to meet him while I was looking for a violin but he was always busy so didn't have a chance to see his violin in the end.

Luthier 6:
(as soon as he saw the violin...) 'You didn't pay more than £xxxx for this one, right? (we did!) The setting is wrong. The bridge is not placed well. The sound post is wrong too. The varnish is too soft. It's still sticky. Not great. You've got to return this one'.
The luthier then said he had a good violin DS may like. If DS wouldn't like it, he could lend a decent violin while he is searching one for DS.

It was just before a lesson so I told the teacher what had just happened.

The teacher: 'Shopping a violin is like shopping a secondhand car. There will always be someone who claims to have a better one or the one we've got is not good. We have to take such comments as a pinch of salt sometimes. It has nice sound and DS likes it, so you may just stick to it.'
The teacher also added that she was a violinist not luthier so she could comment on the sound but not on the technical side so suggested we would take the violin to Luthier 3 or 5 for his opinion. She mentioned them just because she has dealt with them in the past.

So..., I spoke to Luthier 3 after the lesson... He was fine for me to bring the violin but as soon as he realised we were talking about the one he told us not to buy he said he couldn't touch the violin as he didn't think it was good made and if something goes wrong he would get a blame. He even stated it was a financial suicide. In the end he agreed to look at it so I am taking it to him very soon. But his words stabbed my heart.

Sorry for the long post. As you can see I am very confused. If we hadn't had any negative comments on the violin in Feb, I wouldn't have got influenced by Luthier 6's comment this badly. But combined with the strong words of Luthier 3, I was thrown into a tornado! If we are returning, we have to act fast. But will it be a mistake? We still like the violin, the teacher seems to think it has nice sound, and the dealer is very confident with it too, yet a significant numbers of people in the business seem to think it's a bad buy!

To add more information on the violin... It has chippy varnish which the maker, dealer and me all knew. The maker now uses different (stronger) varnish for his newer productions. The dealer offered re-varnishing it. But I wouldn't like to let the violin go through unnecessary process unless it 's really needed. I am not sure how traumatic it would be for the violin. We like the sound and wouldn't want it to change.

Why is it so bad? The varnish? It can be re-do apparently. But how common is it? Is it a bad idea to have it re-varnished?? How about the thickness of the panel. It's kind of new as it hadn't had an owner but it was made in 2015 so it's not completely new. The panel around the bridge area seems fine and healthy, no sinking nor crack. It has nice sound even played by DS's crappy bow....

Oh kutik that sounds so confusing. No words of wisdom from me im afraid. Apart from her teacher, who helped choose it, no one Else has evaluated dd1s violin. It was bought from a good luthier and dd1 is happy. Im sure people could pick faults with it, not least because it's chinese but as får as im concerned it's working out great for dd1. Part of the reason she chose it over others is it is very adaptable and works accross the genres from classical to folk rock. I know you invester a huge amount of time and energy in your violin search so this must be very traumatic for you.

That does sound a bit traumatic kutik. For one of the violins that DS really liked we had opposing views from two violinists. I think I would go with your teacher's statement about secondhand cars...

kutik - I’m so sorry. That sounds so stressful. I would be very cautious about re-varnishing because varnish affects the sound and the process may strain the violin. But I am no expert and I really do think you need expert and unbiased advice.

Jonathan Beecher in Oxford has an excellent reputation and is an expert on setting up and repairing older and newer instruments. He is experienced at working with talented young players. I wonder if he could help, even over the phone in the first instance.

How is your DS taking this news?

I do take the point about second hand cars etc, but I must say, that whilst some luthiers over the years have been a bit sniffy about my violin (which is nothing special), and have criticised the various repairs I have had done, I have never had such extreme comments.

I think going to someone who has not dealt with you before might be a good idea, as you have made a very substantial investment, and you need reassurance.

Mending, The Chinese are making some marvellous instruments now: they really know what they are doing at all price levels. They can make and send half-way round the world a very respectable violin for way less than cost of the materials needed for a violin in the UK, let alone the work and include a case and a reasonable bow. Astonishing!

Oh Kutik I can't offer any words of wisdom as I know nothing about violins . I hope you get it sorted one way or the other soon - it sounds very stressful

A Luthier runs a shop at JD basement to help repair or set up violin. Might be worth to ask the gentleman the opinion.

Kutik that sounds so stressful

Kutik, there is no "typical Irish violin", as far as I know. I am sure there are Irish makers but not enough to form a distinctive recognisable "school".It sounds like boloney to me. I wonder what on earth luthier 2 was on about. Whoever compared buying a violin to buying a used car was not so far off the truth, though, which is why buying a violin or other instrument at auction is so risky unless you are a dealer or repairer. You have little redress if problems appear later on.

Thank you all for your kind words.

Taggie
When I asked the potential damage of re-varnishing, the dealer said it's quite common practice for modern violins so no need to worry too much. I need to research on this because I don't want to do anything drastic that may affect the sound...

Re, reassurance, that was the word from Luthier 5. He is a very respectable guy who is probably known by all in the business, at least in London. I decided not to take a risk so returned the violin but DS never forgot about the violin, so when Luthier 5 said it was a good maker, I felt I got the reassurance I so wanted for the violin and jumped in. I am going to see Luthier 3 and 5 just because the teacher suggested. But you are right. I'll see one more luthier who O haven't dealt with in the past.