4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

Oh dear stringme! DS's crappy one was around £40!!!

Thank you so much everyone for the advice - yes I think it must be the vibrato (that would fit in with when her teacher started mentioning it).

And I now know that a Luthier isn’t just a misspelt detective- how have I got through 50 years without ever coming across this word / job?

I’ll have a chat with her teacher this week and work out the best way forward

Kitty - changing strings can make all the difference, though there will always be a limit to how good a cheaper instrument will sound

Kutik - DS2’s quarter size bow was part of a £150 outfit. Really hideous. He went onto the half size bow as soon as he got the new violin, but it hasn’t been ideal. I marked ‘his’ middle and point with tape, but we have still had a horrible battle with a crooked bow, bounce point in the wrong place etc. He is only now growing into it, just as he grows out of the violin. I think we will stick with this lovely bow for several more months!

Perhaps jd can lend your DS a decent 3/4 bow for a few months?

DS seems dumb at everything. He doesn't mind playing the new 800 pounds violin. He can't sense the different of his few quid bow and his teacher's 10k euro one. BTW, after few weeks play, the new violin sound opened well. His teacher said the G D are good and E A a little bit tight. She suggest to play little longer to see if the adjustment is needed.

Kitty, I'm the same - never came across the word/job before DS started violin! If I had known I may have wanted to become one. Their work is so fascinating. DS is also very much interested in the every step of violin making. He's learnt so much for the last two months that he speaks like a proper craftsman or dealer observing the material for the body, fingerboard and pegs, one or two panels, slim or fat shape, skilled work of scroll, colour of varnish, etc! A luthier was so delighted by DS's obvious fascination that he showed DS his precious tools and even gave him some advice on becoming a luthier! He recommended DS a school in Italy.

Taggie, I thought of marking but I fear the unnecessarily long bow may cause DS to develop unwelcoming bad habit. If we decide to stick to 3/4 for a while, we will consider borrowing from jd as you suggested.

The place to study to become a luthier in the uk is Newark. There is also the Cambridge amateur makers courses that run short courses which I've always been tempted by - a fascinating craft!

stringme, I am seriously fascinated by the art and skills. It could be one of my retirement hobbies then - to learn how to make violins! It must be an expensive hobby though. You need lots of equipment. One of the carving knives a luthier showed DS was more expensive than any violin DS has tried.

Betterto, unfortunately it seems pretty common to have stronger and weaker strings. Very hard to find all are equally balanced. However I was told lower registers are harder to make significant improvement. So it's good that you have good G and D.

Kutik I'm very glad to hear your search is almost over. We are trying to find a nice 3/4 for dd but the strange Child doesn't like the idea of old instruments. Thinking I will leave this chat to her teacher as she respects his opinions.

We didn't have any preference so looked both old and new ranging from 1700 to 2017. The violin DS likes most is made in 2015 and it's never had an owner so kind of new. We may end up buying a total bland new though. The same maker is just finishing his latest creation and is going to show us once it's done. So we'll probably buy either 2015 or 2018 of the same maker.

se22mother a good new instrument will always beat an average or crummy old one, especially once the initial settling-in period is over.

I can kind of agree especially when the budget was tight.

We are nearly there but the purchase hasn't been made yet so while waiting for the moment of delivering the happy news I would like to start listing up luthiers/dealers we encountered during our hunting adventure.

The comments are biased by our own personal experience so please don't take them too seriously. I am sure we all have a different view, experience, luck, etc. Although I do favour some over others it's probably lots to do with luck and timing and I can truly say they are all equally professional and respectable.

JP Guiver
We visited them more than a couple of times. I find them very helpful, generous, understanding and fair. As one of the oldest London dealers, they've established reliable reputation. If you live in London and don't know where to start or want to save time from visiting many places, I think I would recommend Guivier. It wouldn't go wrong with them.

Stringers
Equally established and popular for London residents (and Edinburgh). But somehow I heard mixed views. To be honest, as long as you are dealing with human there will always be ones who complain or feel unhappy, so I assume they are as good and reliable as Guivier really. We didn't go there initially because our teacher was not very keen (but she was talking from few examples she encountered) and later on we tried to visit but it didn't happen simply for logistic reason.

Matthew Coltman
Another reputable place in London. He is a bow maker though he has good stock of stringed instruments. When we visited, a lady was making a cello. Matthew showed DS bow making and let DS have a go just for fun. Friendly, helpful and honest. The £4k German was from his shop. The teacher liked it and said it would be good enough as a forever violin if DS wouldn't go down a professional route. It may still be available if you are interested!

My list is pretty long so will continue the rest another time.

Haven't finished the list yet but I just wanted to deliver the happy news first! After spending nearly three months on searching, travelling and trying, we finally bought a violin TODAY!

It's the violin DS loved but I made a big fuss and returned. It came back to him and they've been inseparable ever since.

According to the maker, his new production is better than his earlier one. But DS tried 2017, 2016 and 2015 and liked the earliest of the three which was the one he tried and loved originally. So that's it. Our exhausting, exciting and eye opening hunting has finally reached to the end. We need a bow but that's another story.

I was going to purchase the £5.5k violin mentioned in my first post and started this thread only to question about the pricing. But one comment led to another and I ended up receiving lots of advice which eventually led us to find DS's dream violin. Some people may have rolled their eyes for our tedious journey but it was really interesting experience for us. We learnt so much and met so many fascinating people, including those who kindly contributed to this thread. I couldn't thank enough to all of you who kindly took precious time to share the wisdom and knowledge.

Congratulations!

It's really interesting reading about this.

Start another thread about the bow hunt!

Congratulations! I've been following this thread with huge interest, as I will be doing the same thing - hunting for a full-size violin by summer.

Please continue with your luthiers list - it's a wonderful resourse. Btw, would you be happy to share the name of the violin maker you eventually went with?

Phew! Well done.

Thanks NeverEver and cingoli.

Old Violin Workshop in Hampton
It's like a little gem in the middle of nowhere. DS's 1/2 and 3/4 came from this shop and I was really hoping to buy 4/4 also. They price very honestly, very open with their opinions, friendly and kind. They tried to help us find DS's dream violin and got two lovely ones from auction thinking of DS. Unfortunately DS didn't choose theirs this time, but they are still my very favourite. They sell quality old violins, for instance, good enough for pupils at Menuhin School (one of them is our friend's son who is very happy with the violin). But it doesn't mean they deal with expensive violins only. DS's 3/4 was well under £1000 but we received so many compliments on the sound and got offered more than £1000 from a few people to buy. I have firm trust in their honesty of pricing and valuation, and they are just so helpful in general.

Blackburn Stringed Instruments in Kensington
Mr. Blackburn is ex pro violinist and seems to enjoy being a luthier now. It was great that he could give us advice from a player's point of views. He also told us how to handle violins. He even handed us a little note that explains how to treat/maintain violins when we took some for approval. I could feel he was very passionate about old violins and genuinely wanted to preserve them as mint condition as possible for the next generations. Unfortunately his violins didn't sound great when we ran a test at jd. I have a feeling that his usual price ranges are higher than our budget so perhaps didn't have something as good as the ones we found elsewhere for the same value. Or it could be just that DS picked wrong ones!

To be continued.

Kutik, this has been a fascinating and educational thread. Thank you so much for taking the time.. it is very informative for our own search for a 3/4

This has been a lovely thread. Do please come back and tell us how choosing a bow goes.

Congratulations!!

Tell me about William John!

Has anyone had any dealings with a Tarquin Bolton based in Durham by any chance?

MidLife, sorry I have never heard of him. How did you hear about him? Are you planning to make a visit?

NeverEver

William John
First of all, we liked the name as a Star Wars fan. Anyway. We got his contact from the teacher. She bought a violin and a cello for her DCs from him many years ago, and I think she uses for simple maintenance for her violin. So, he should be a decent luthier! DS and I both enjoyed visiting his workshop. He is easy going, relaxing and genuine. DS liked his violin and we were very close to purchase it. But we couldn't. He let us keep his violin for a long time, but in the end we had to return as it was not fair for him and others who may be interested in the violin. He is a lot more experienced than the maker of DS's violin. Perhaps it was safer to get his instead. I don't know. He has many more violins other than the ones he made - from good quality Chinese ones to old antique ones. He can adjust the sound while you are trying. He is very handy to know I think. I am willing to keep in touch with him. And I can happily recommend him without hesitation. He also has a few good bows. DS was shown two bows - one was an old German without name and another was a modern bow with fairly big name. He recommended the old German for DS telling us it would suit DS more. It was a lot cheaper than the other one. He was not pushy at all nor trying to sell more expensive ones.

Good luck to your 3/4 hunt, se22!

Thanks, CruCru and Olennas.