4/4 Violin hunting

[Kutik73]

We've started hunting for a 4/4 violin for DS. We have visited two luthiers so far and each let us take one home. We can keep one for a week and another for two weeks.

DS likes one in particular and it costs £5500 for the violin alone. I know the price is not always mirrored to the quality of the sounds. It only makes difficult to judge as I don't play any instrument. So I did a bit of research and accidentally found the same violin being sold back in October for £1200-1800. It's auctioned so the exact selling price was not displayed. Looking at the photo, it has the same marks and scars so it's definitely the same violin we have here.

I can see the bridge, chin rest, and tuners has been replaced. But the selling notes stated the condition as excellent so I assume major work wasn't required by the luthier. But I don't know.

Surely luthiers have to make money so I understand it's common practice for them to buy something cheaper and add some work and sell at a higher price. But more than doubling the bought price sound quite a lot, especially it seemed to be in great conditions already.

Should I be careful or can I trust the luthier? I hope he is not pricing unnecessarily high... Any input/advice/sharing experiences would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you Kutik!

Just a quick note! The teacher saw our violin very briefly when we first got it in February and didn't issue any concerns at the time. We brought the violin back to her yesterday to get her final approval (though we had already purchased it...). We were a bit nervous what she would say... After spending good 45 mins to assess the sound, she gave us a big thumb up! Yes, she loved it! Yaaay!!

Anyway, here is another (very subjective) review..

Bridgewood & Neitzert
I have slightly bitter feeling towards them, simply because I had to pay for the congestion charge penalty TWICE to get there... Nothing to do with them, I know. I just completely forgot to pay for the fee, TWICE... Sign. Anyway. They seem to have many royal customers. They have a bow specialist (Neitzert) and a violin specialist (Bridgewood) and some knowledgeable staff. The Old French came from them. They kindly let us have the violin for nearly one month (usually one week), they offered to adjust the sound, changed all the strings to maximise the effect of the adjustment. When we finally decided to return the violin, they were very understanding and told me they hope they could help us find a bow. So, yes, they are good. Not my most favourite, but it's nothing to do with their quality. Perhaps it's because of the bitterness of the penalty charges! Oh but they are most expensive for taking violin out for approval. While other places including those in central London charge £0 - £10, they charge £15 which was slightly surprising considering the location. Some people seem to assume those outside of London must offer more competitive price due to the location, but I find it's not always true. Not necessarily more expensive, but probably about the same.

Did you mean royal or loyal customers?

Silly me! Yes, I meant LOYAL.

I thought that's what you meant! Anyone in North London looking for an instrument or needing a repair could try Hill's in Welwyn near Welwyn Garden City. (No connection with the well-known business formerly in New Bond St). Very pleasant and helpful and fair prices for repairs. Lovely village too; Van Gogh visited his sister there, having walked from Ramsgate.

I did wonder, but who is to say royal personages can't go to Stoke Newington? It's a free country.

I am going through the list. We are also looking for a full-size violin but not urgently.

Kutik Does DS take his new violin to school?

TBH that's what I worry about the most - that DS would take his £squillion violin (not that we have a £squillion violin) to school and something nasty would happen to it...

I really enjoy reading this thread - thank you Kutik. My DS also plays violin (not as committed or as keen as your DS though!) and our search resulted in buying one of William John's violins which my boy really loves. He did feel a bit guilty when he gave up his 3/4 though - he felt disloyal and sad when he put it into it's case after playing it for the last time.
I used to worry about him taking the 4/4 into school but have learnt to trust him as he really does love it and would not like to see it come to any harm.
OP I am waiting on tenterhooks to find out who made your DS violin as we are shortly about to go on a viola hunt!

I must add that the Old French was one of very few violins among our selection the teacher was not very keen for DS. She did like the colours DS managed to produce on the violin when he played some very slow moody piece. But it was too noisy when he played something energetic with lots of chords. She was also concerned about the dominant sound of the lower registers. It did project well, and Bridgewood & Neizert seemed to think it was one of the best options in the price range so it would be great for someone else but sadly not for DS.

Granny, thanks for the info! I really need to find a trustworthy luthier who would help us maintain DS's violin locally. I'm afraid North London may be a bit too far (we live in SW). Any suggestion any one?

NeverEver, I understand your fear! Currently I am always with him when he takes violin out somewhere as he is still at primary school. Once a while he has to take violin to school when he joins their group sessions (he doesn't have lessons at school). I'm with him to and fro school but can't keep my eyes on it at school! He leaves it in the room where violin teacher uses for lessons so it's relatively safe (I think). He will be away with his violin for a week or so this summer when he goes to NCO residential. Scary. And I do worry once he starts secondary from September. He takes bus/tube for 45 mins journey every day, ALONE... Well, if something happens, then Mr. Allianz will save us...

We had choices - buy a spare for school use, buy a student ranged violin to use for everything, or buy what DS loves but then be brave! We went for the third option.

4tune (I love the name!), thanks for joining the thread! Is the viola for your DS? Where do you live? I heard good things about Alex Violins (Alex Hillairet) in North London. He is a violist himself.

Your DS is a lucky boy to be able to own WJ's violin. I once read an article about him and he was addressing his aim to become the top 5 violin makers in the UK or something. Nice to have such ambition and it shows how passionate he is for what he does.

Oh, I should have added this info to the review. The reason why I am taking this long to write each review is to include as much information I gathered as possible and I really need to think and remember what I found and how I felt at the time. But I am not doing a good job here!

Kutik you are doing a fantastic job IMO!
Yes my boy is very lucky to have a WJ violin - and he is grateful every time he plays it. And yes the viola is also for him. He is playing a loaned viola from school which he doesn't like at all. Buying violas is quite an unknown for us as they vary in size and it may be best to wait a bit longer until my boy has fully grown and we know which size instrument that he'll be comfortable with.

It's so nice to hear a child appreciating and treating his/her instrument rightly - an instrument made with great care deserves it! I am sure his viola teacher can give you advice, but meanwhile it may be good to start some research slowly and start making a visit now? We learnt so much by just visiting luthiers. For instance someone like Alex could give you advice from the player's point of views? Good luck with your hunt!

4tune Lionel Tertis started a trend for large violas years ago but few players use them now. The challenge is to find a smaller instrument that plays well. I think a 15 3/4 inch back is the minimum to achieve a decent sound on the C string and 16 1/4 max, maybe 16 1/2 if he is a big chap. If he needs something smaller immediately maybe you could find a shop that will buy back instruments they have sold, when moving to a larger or better one, like Hill's that I mentioned above. (If you are buying the new one from them). In any case you should be able to get all or most of the cost back, selling privately or trading in, as long as you but wisely to start with!

Don't mention violas! DC (with 3 instruments each and both disparaging about each other's instruments) are united in their desire to play the viola.

I said OVER MY DEAD BODY.

Not till they move out, or we would have to move out to make room for their instruments.

Hmm, DS may take up viola at some point so I am quietly interested in where this viola discussion goes.

I've asked this on our regular music thread but thought I may attract more string players on this thread so let'me have a go with the same question here. Do you use a practice mute? DS has a bulky plastic one but he hates it as he cannot see beyond the mute/bridge due to the bulkiness. I was just wondering if there is any slimmer version available. I am not keen on metal as it's quite risky for a 10 years old to handle on an expensive violin!

So sorry to mention violas never! I understand your situation (DS also plays 3 instruments and won't give up any of them to concentrate on 1 or 2) but I've somehow succumbed to the argument that playing viola as a 4th adds versatility, opportunity, and 'another string to my bow'! DS hasn't had viola lessons but his violin teacher encouraged him to play viola as they needed one for an ensemble and thus history was made...
Great advice Granny thank you. Funnily enough my DH had looked up Hill's because he'd heard of Elspeth and Christopher Rowe and wanted to add them to a wish list to try.

Ah, the Rows. DS tried their violins. He is going to The Isle of Wight as a school trip very soon. He was excitedly telling me he could be able to visit their workshop. I'm afraid none of his classmates is interested so it's very much unlikely to happen! Ha ha.

Violin workshops are beautiful places. Maybe his classmates can be persuaded?

Actually the thing to do is to persuade school that it's a marvelous educational opportunity.

I agree, it's so educational (and beautiful). DS appreciates more now after the many visits we made to workshops, not only violin but all those involved great craftmanship around him. I was told carefully written books should be read equally carefully when I was a kid. It's all about appreciation and recognition of the great art.

I wouldn't expect that many violin makers could deal with more than a handful of visitors at one time. Lack of space, many sharp tools, machinery, bottles of chemicals, glues; an H&S nightmare!
Re practise mutes: they are inevitably bulky.The metal ones might be smaller but are very heavy, so change the whole balance of the player, and can chew up the bridge. Some believe they continue to affect the violin's sound after being removed. Interestingly, some composers are writing for strings using practise mutes as a special effect.

Agree again with the nightmare of 30 kids visiting a poor luthier.

Thanks for your comment on the mute. DS ditched the practice mute and decided to use the tiny one he normally uses for orchestra. It doesn't dampen the sound like the bulky practice mute but still works for occasional practice when loud sound is not welcomed.

Kutik we visited a luthier today and have a 3/4 on approval. DD's teacher isn't even around for a week and I see he face us exactly 7 days, plus we'd like to get a second option to compare against. How did you get longer than one week for approval?

Gave not face

se22, how exiting!

Luthiers are very understanding so just tel him that you won't see the teacher for a week. I am sure he will happily give you more time. I was in the same situation, especially during Easter. There was no way I could see the teacher in a week time. I explained the situation to them and some violins happened to stay with us a little too long!