Brexit MegaThread - part 14

[Peregrina]

Thread 13. We had a debate about whether there should be a new one but if no one answers this the whole series after 8 years plus will come to their end.

Brexit happened, although one time Leavers do not seem to appreciate this.
It's worth noting I think that Brexit was a Tory initiative and the Tory party has just received its worse electoral thrashing since 1832. Could it be entirely unrelated?

What next? A gradual rapprochement with the EU? A Norway style agreement?

I think you just have to nod and go there there Globe

Globetrotter you single me out. I said that Farage's attempt to distance himself from Brexit was hogwash. So is your reply. We all know that it's taken him 8 attempts to finally win a seat in Parliament - not that he appears to be taking his duties seriously. Most of us who have followed Brexit for the past 8 years also knew that he was an MEP and did bugger all there either to represent the UK's interests. Since you like to have history lessons, recall that of 42 meeting about fisheries that he could have attended, he only bothered to turn up once.

Mind you, I am now amused that he and Elon Musk are falling out.

Mind you, I am now amused that he and Elon Musk are falling out.

Totally. He was an embarrassment as an MEP - he certainly didn't take the job seriously and milked it for all he could. He seems to be following the same pattern as a Westminster MP.

@MaybeNotBob

Well, with Iceland looking at a referendum (I bet it won't be legal if it's 52%-48%)

The UK’s departure from the EU did not occur from the result of the 2016 referendum, but by an act of Parliament to trigger EU Article 50 voted in on 29 March 2017 by a majority of 498 to 113 which is 82% in favour of leaving the EU and 18% against.

And the act of parliament was in response to the national referendum of course. It would never have been triggered without the referendum and the constant braying of people like NF. Why would it? It's been a disaster economically and socially for the UK.

@Zonder

Few people vote on a single issue. As much as I was against Brexit I still couldn't bring myself to vote Lib Dem.

But this is my point. As per remain supporters, Brexit would make the UK worse off in many ways such as:

An immediate recession
Increased unemployment
Decreased trade opportunities
Food and medicine shortages
Reduced investment
Households would be £4300 worse off by 2030
UK would be permanently poorer.

So, whilst Brexit is a single word, as per remain supporters it would impact negatively on almost every facet of life. Hence, Brexit was not single issue.

That so, can you, as someone who is against Brexit, but did not vote for the only clear “let’s scrap Brexit” party, the LibDems, explain what was in the LibDems manifesto of 2019 did you consider to be worse than the forecasts made by remain?

You are not alone in your choice. I remember another poster (Vimto I think their name was) saying that they voted Labour instead of the LibDems even though they don’t agree with Brexit.

This is a genuine question that has so far not been answered/explained. So, I hope it produces some genuine answers.

I can't really answer that, as I did vote Lib Dem...

@Zonder

And the act of parliament was in response to the national referendum of course. It would never have been triggered without the referendum and the constant braying of people like NF.

The UK joined the EU in 1973 without a referendum being held beforehand.

Likewise the 2015 EU referendum act did not say that the outcome of a referendum had to be honoured. Also, the outcome of the Gina Miller case was that the UK government alone was not entitled to trigger Article 50. I had to be done with an act of Parliament.

Why would it? It's been a disaster economically and socially for the UK.

This ties in with my earlier reply to your previous post. If Brexit was certain to be both an economic and social disaster, why did the 16.1 million people who voted remain in 2016 not vote LibDem in 2019? If they had, these threads wouldn’t exist.

Buyers regret from Globe

Tell me you don't understand UK politics without telling me

@MaybeNotBob

I can't really answer that, as I did vote Lib Dem...

Thanks for your reply.

Was your vote based on:

you are a regular LibDem supporter and agree with their principles, or;

not a regular LibDem supporter, but voted for them anyway as if elected there would be no Brexit, even though you may not support some of their policies/ideas. ie their shortcomings were worth it to ensure the UK did not leave the EU?

@DuncinToffee

Buyers regret from Globe

wishful thinking as always. And goes nowhere to explain why remain supporters did not take the opportunity to cancel Brexit in 2019.

I have voted as follows

2024 - Labour
2019 - Conservative
2017- Conservative
2015 - Conservative
2010 - Conservative
1997 - Labour

@GlobeTrotter2000

Tell us how you voted in 2019

Edited
You just did, so you voted for 'get brexit done' and the 'oven ready deal'

@Zonder

Tell me you don't understand UK politics without telling me

I can’t out how that explains why remain supporters did not vote LibDem in 2019.

The reasonable ones amongst you have a lot more patience than me as I can longer be bothered reading his posts

Judging by your responses, he's now going on about how you voted in the various elections since the EU Referendum as "proof" of a lack of support to rejoin and/or support for Brexit.

FWIW, I have consistently voted for a party - not the LibDems - who has consistently supported membership of the EU

As I clearly stated - this shows that you have absolutely zero understanding of UK politics I wonder why that could be.

I'm not here to be your Politics teacher, in the same way that you're not here to engage in reasonable debate.

As I clearly stated - this shows that you have absolutely zero understanding of UK politics

AI doesn't "understand" anything. Merely stiches words together in a form that previous experience has suggested works.

@DuncinToffee

More of a process of elimination.

Labour ruled out on the basis they were responsible for the UK not leaving the EU on 29 March 2019. They stated in their 2017 manifesto they would support the referendum result, but after winning 40% they switched to a remain party.

Emily Thornberry on the 5 September 2019 episode of BBC QT convinced me Labour were floundering. Her policy was to get a deal that remained in both the CU and SM and then campaign to remain. Both the same in my view.

LibDems were much more tactful. On the same 5 September 2019 episode of BBC QT, Layla Moran, acknowledged that going round in circles forever on Brexit, whilst other important issues were ignored, was not helpful to either the UK or the EU. So, LibDem policy was to revoke Article 50.

At this point a member of the audience stated that the next general election was effectively a second referendum. For those who wanted Brexit, vote for Conservatives or the Brexit Party. For those who didn’t want Brexit, vote SNP or the LibDems. Richard Tyce of the Brexit party agreed.

As for oven ready deals, there are no such references in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. However, the EU UK trade an cooperation deal was concluded on 20 December 2020 during the transition period. It prevents the UK from selling the same goods to non EU countries for less than that of EU member, but has no such restrictions on services.

Totally agree.

@prettybird

Judging by your responses, he's now going on about how you voted in the various elections since the EU Referendum as "proof" of a lack of support to rejoin and/or support for Brexit.

Incorrect. The three general elections held since 29 March 2017 when 82% of UK MP’s voted to trigger article 50 have been won by pro Brexit parties.

2017 - Conservative and DUP coalition 327 seats
2019 - Conservative majority 365 seats
2024 - Labour majority 411 seats

That the pro Brexit parties are winning by increasing majorities since 29 March 2017 is not consistent with the views presented in these threads that the majority want to rejoin the EU.

I don't think it could be said that Labour was either pro or anti Brexit. Their most notable position was sitting on the fence. Now Starmer is presumably trying to stave off the threat to the Red Wall seats from Reform. But we have Brexitted, which GlobeTrotter appears to have missed.

Starmer is sitting on the fence even as it rots away beneath him.

Old man Le Pen has died so that gives Marine much more leeway on what she says and does going forwards.

How people voted in the past is largely irrelevant.
Its how we will engage with the MPs we have today and going forward that matters.

I am trying to get my MP to talk to me but she is very elusive (on all issues)

@MaybeNotBob

I'm not here to be your Politics teacher,

Who said you were?

in the same way that you're not here to engage in reasonable debate.

The OP started this thread by asking if the conservatives worst result since 1832 was due to Brexit being initiated by themselves.

I said no on the basis that the Labour manifesto was clear in that the UK would not join the CU or the SM. The poster PrettyBird also pointed out what Kier Starmer said regards the EU.

The thread, like so many in the past, followed the route that remain supporters know better. However, when challenged to explain why people did not vote LibDems in 2019 to ensure Brexit would not happen, there is seldom a reply. The same applies to the question as to why pro Brexit parties are winning elections by increasing majorities if people have changed their minds is correct.