Brexit MegaThread - part 14

[Peregrina]

Thread 13. We had a debate about whether there should be a new one but if no one answers this the whole series after 8 years plus will come to their end.

Brexit happened, although one time Leavers do not seem to appreciate this.
It's worth noting I think that Brexit was a Tory initiative and the Tory party has just received its worse electoral thrashing since 1832. Could it be entirely unrelated?

What next? A gradual rapprochement with the EU? A Norway style agreement?

The DM's headline today is

Starmer's 'Surrender Squad' to undo Brexit

Really ? I thought they might have had a retrospective where they recall the glory days of explaining how wonderful that nice Mr. Hitler was. Who knows, they might even print a photo of the own - a certain "Rothermere" (he's a lord so only uses his surname) shaking hands with the man from Berlin.

Here's hoping!

Starmer's 'Surrender Squad' to undo Brexit

Let's hope, and let Reform continue to be the Brexit party. Yes Labour may well lose seats to them, but they are probably going to be lost anyway, so it would be as well for Labour to remember just how many Remain supporters they used to have.

Brexit cannot be undone.Like the cat you flattened with your car when you were drunk driving, it is DEAD and cannot be reinstated. The terms were written in the Withdrawal agreement and that is ALL the uK will receive from now on. Brexiteers got exactly what they wanted so if it is not good enough, blame THEM.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/business-economics/marks-and-spencer-open-warehouse-to-store-brexit-paperwork-387243/

The brexiteers are definitely making noise in the media defending their victory...

These (desperate) threads always provide good entertainment.

Since 23 June 2016, remain supporters have claimed that the referendum result to leave the EU was because many people were dumb enough to believewhat was published by the Daily Mail. However, when the same tabloid publishes something they want to hear such as Starmer secretly planing for the UK to rejoin the EU, remain supporters are happy to quote the Daily Mail. Sounds very like double standards.

The never ending statement that a referendum should never have been held overlooks the following facts.

1975 a retrospective confirmation referendum was held to ask if the UK should remain in the EU after joining 1 January 1973. So, if a referendum was called in 1975, why could another referendum not held 41 years later?

I would trust a vote based on 44 years of available hindsight a lot more than a mere 2 years.

Article 50 was developed over a period of 9 years from 2000 to 2009 to describe the procedure to leave the EU. All 28 EU members signed the Article. Made sense to me as any union which states:

”once you have joined, you will never be allowed to leave”

is not a democratic union.

In 2015, the EU issued its referendum act.

In 2016, the referendum was held in accordance with the EU act.

2017, the Gina Miller case law stated that the government alone could not alone initiate withdrawal, but it required an act of parliament.

29 March 2017, the outcome of the UK parliament vote whether or not to remain in the UK as:

498 MPs voted to leave
113 MPs voted to remain

A huge majority in favour of leave

So, the decision to leave the EU was made by elected MPs, not by the 17.4 million who voted leave the previous year.

December 2018, the ECJ advised that any member who had triggered Article 50 had a sovereign right to unilaterally revoke.

UK parliament did not exercise their right to revoke. Can remain supporters explain that decision?

2019, the LibDem manifesto stated that if they were elected Brexit would be revoked. So, the opportunity to cancel Brexit was on the table.

the LibDems, who were the only clear remain party, won 3.7 million votes. This is 12.4 million short of the 16.1 million votes to remain in 2016.

Can remain supporters explain why they squandered the opportunity to cancel Brexit? My explanation wound be that remain supporters had changed theirs minds and voted for the leave parties instead.

Perigrina makes a good point about many Labour supporters also being leave supporters. Fullfact estimated that Approx. 60% of labour supporters also voted leave in the 2016 referendum.

The Labour result in 2019 was a good example of how ignoring your supporters can backfire. Likewise their 2024 result demonstrates how to win back lost voters by saying sorry for what Labour did in 2019 which was to offer remain and remain.

Moscow have rebooted the 486 PC again

@IItisymoi
I know we cannot go back to pre 2016
but there are many tangible non controversial things the UK Government could be sensible on
that would be fine with the EU and would help the UK economy and people
free movement for under 30's is one
agreeing to 'align' on food standards is another.

"It’s time for the UK to be brave in talks with the EU".

https://www.ft.com/content/cc70d299-2f1f-470f-bc39-dbb656856fc5

@IItisymoi

Brexit came about when UK MPs triggered article 50.

As for the UK rejoining the EU, I would agree with you. Firstly, the UK parliament wound have to vote on whether or not to pursue EU article 49. Even if that happened, each of the existing EU members will have to accept the UK’s application. It would only take one to say no and that’s the application rejected.

Also, there are likely to be many emotional and pride factors involved.

France and Germany may be afraid that other countries will laugh a them. Acceptance could be construed as admitting that the EU is better off with the UK in rather than out of the EU.

@Talkinpeace

free movement for under 30's

That was suggested before by the EU, but when the small print was read it went beyond under 30s. If the EU dropped the Schengen 90/180 rule for UK persons who have second homes in the EU it may work.

Remember that agreements have to be satisfactory to both parties, not just one.

Can remain supporters explain why they squandered the opportunity to cancel Brexit?
Because the UK voting public were never given the oportunity of 'cancelling' the referendum vote as the tory party were into full on LIE about EVERYTHING mode which had been ongoing for several years at that point and the UK govrernmeny (those that could read or be bothered to ask their minders) Knew that as soon as Article 50 was signed it would be 'game over': Yet again Globe waffling a load of crap that anyone who had a diary or could read the newspapers of the time would know:
For what it is worth 'Brexit' still remains to be defined as the effects of the Withdrawal Agreement and TCA are STILL coming out of the woodwork and causing significant problems:

@IItisymoi We were never given a real chance to redefine the outcome of the referendum.
I stood in parliament square listening to the MPs saying no to everything
and being surprised that they then ended up with nothing

THe electorate were never given the chance to say what sort of Brexit they actually wanted

Remainers is outdated terminology

Rejoiners
Bregretters
...

It gives me great pleasure to learn that UK drivers caught speeding in France (and the rest of Europe) will still receive fines that have to be paid despite Brexit because you are NOT exceptional. The French authorities use the DVLA databases to obtain UK addresses. I think it should be linked to the ETIAS /visa scheme so that UK offenders would be prevented from entering the EU at the Ports.

@Peregrina

And if so, there should have been an insistence on a threshold, say 66%, and that all the nations of the UK were in agreement.

Yet more old and desperate nonsense.

There was no threshold in the 1975 referendum. Likewise the EU 2015 referendum act made no reference to thresholds.

The UK was a single member of the EU. That the UK was a union of four countries is irrelevant to the EU and the question asked on the ballot paper.

The suggestion that all UK nations had to give the same answer is not possible. It could create a scenario whereby a small minority could dictate to the large majority.

Also, if there was a 3:1 difference in either direction, how would it have been resolved?

In 2016, the combined number of registered voters in; NI, Scotland and Wales was Approx. 7.4 million. That’s less than half of the 17.4 million who voted leave.

France and Germany may be afraid that other countries will laugh a them

Seriously.

@IItisymoi

When anyone visits another country, they are subject to the laws of that country regardless of whether they are from an EU or non EU country.

I was caught speeding in the Netherlands in 2020 whilst UK was still in the EU. However, I still had to pay the fine.

@IItisymoi

EU stated in December 2018 that the UK had a sovereign right to unilaterally revoke article 50. That’s 21 months after Article 50 was triggered in March 2017.

Also, a vote for the LibDems in the December 2019 general election would have enabled a revoke of Article 50. That’s 33 months after March 2017.

So, your statement that it was all over after March 2017 is incorrect.

@Talkinpeace

Regards what type of Brexit people might have wanted, I suggest you watch the 5 September 2019 episode of BBC question time.

Layla Moran, LibDems, was clear that if her party won there would be no Brexit.

Emily Thornberry, Labour, suggested a referendum on whether people would accept the deal on offer, or would people prefer to remain.

Richard Tice, Brexit Party, and Qwasi Quartang, Conservatives, suggested a referendum on take the deal offered by the EU of leave without a deal in accordance with Article 50.

@DuncinToffee

Whoever the rejoiners and begretters are, they must exist in small numbers. Since Article 50 was triggered in March 2017 there have been three general elections in the UK. All have been won by pro Brexit parties.

486 SX

Despite Jacob Rees-Mogg reasonably suggesting a second referendum to make just that decision.

Once again, Brexit was paid for with a dud cheque. No matter how many times you hopefully (re)present it to the cashier, it can never be cashed.

Seems Nigel Farage is increasingly reluctant to be in any room where there is a danger of Brexit being discussed.

#FarageRiots really needs to become #MrBrexit

Some very interesting implications here - especially the second question:

https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-politics-of-the-reset-trump-putin-and-shifting-eu-uk-public-opinion/

Enter blame everyone else for brexit stage

Rees Mogg had his sister doing that on the Jeremy Vine show this morning. Not sure if article 50 was mentioned