Brexit MegaThread - part 14

[Peregrina]

Thread 13. We had a debate about whether there should be a new one but if no one answers this the whole series after 8 years plus will come to their end.

Brexit happened, although one time Leavers do not seem to appreciate this.
It's worth noting I think that Brexit was a Tory initiative and the Tory party has just received its worse electoral thrashing since 1832. Could it be entirely unrelated?

What next? A gradual rapprochement with the EU? A Norway style agreement?

I am a pensioner and have lost my winter fuel allowance. But I have heard so many people say that they didn't need it, that I find some of the weeping and wailing and teeth gnashing a bit tiresome. It could have been handled better I imagine, and I am sure that there are other areas which needed more attention and would have raised more money.

But for the right wing press and the Faragists, this and the farmers inheritance tax are all nice ways to bash Labour. The lies and cheating of the Tories appear to be forgotten.

Starmer has a huge job to do
the Tories left him an absolute shitshow to clear up
BUT
his messaging is not pulling people along with him
and that is a shame
because it will allow the wazzocks in the media to keep undermining him
even when good things are being done.

Wes Streeting is turning out to be much much better than I expected
his clear voice and message should be put front and centre

his messaging is not pulling people along with him and that is a shame because it will allow the wazzocks in the media to keep undermining him even when good things are being done.

Very much the same with Biden and the Democrats in the USA. However Starmer still has 4 and a half years to put things right.

I would much rather Keir Starmer had the wherewithal to deploy his considerable intelligence where it will have most impact for the good of the UK. Fighting a partisan right wing media that goes through 2 boxes of Kleenex whenever Farage opens any orifice is not one of those areas.

A few posters have noted that for a party and incoming government "with no plan (©Tory party and media campaign 2024) Labour appear to have already delivered some pretty sweeping plans. That hopefully will deliver fruit as we move forwards. If that is a result of Keir Starmer neglecting the messaging, then is that a problem ?

Being horribly cynical, farmers are never happy - so frankly the media storm around pissing them off may go down well in Farageshire, but as far as I am concerned they got the Brexit they wanted and still aren't satisfied. What more can you do for a tiny proportion of people that the UK economy was wrecked for and who still whine ? Now that may be simplistic, offensive, and not entirely accurate. However it's also not a unique view.

I can't speak so much about the WFA to know the fairness and details or not.

But in the round I can speak for the fact that since 2010, I've seen the UK decline to the state where it's a rather comforting nostalgia for the 1970s. Who knows, maybe my life will end up being symmetrical. Given my slight obsession with symmetry, I can appreciate the irony.

Gosh, that turned out to be a lot. I used to like dark winter afternoons ....

2 minutes after I pressed send above,. this floated past my feed 😮

The farmers can take a hike IMHO - I read Dan Neidle regularly.

And its key that Biden was always hamstrung by the Filibuster

Starmer has four years with a huge majority
when he could ignore the frothing of the press and be a bit more brave

The farmers can take a hike IMHO - I read Dan Neidle regularly.

I like his analysis generally, but don't need it to be antipathetic to famers. No amount of tippex is going to erase they - and their so called communities - part in tipping the UK over the edge in 2016. Fair does. Leave won. Brexit means Brexit. Fuck the rest of the UK at least farmers got the result they wanted.

If that had been that, it might have been different.

However on the back of that in 2019 we got possibly the worst government of this century - even with 75 years left. But, again, fair enough, that was too the will of the people. And they delivered the Brexit everyone wanted.

So with two such big bites of the cherry that there is now no cherry left, I feel I can be slightly forgiven for asking myself what more do these people want ?

It needn't be like that. However as of (checks) 16:37 on Saturday 30th November 2024, I see no signs of acknowledging the harm done to all the UK - not just farmers and fishers - let alone any attempt to repair the damage. Just a serious of "Me, me, me" whining that is frankly grating.

If farmers had a cent of intelligence, they would have found a way to make Nigel Farage disappear (hopefully forever) when he rocked up in his wellies to tell them how badly they had been treated.

My hike comment was purely about the tax changes.
Yes, all the farmers are denying they voted for brexit.
They forget that we have pictures of their posters.

Food security is an issue but its key that more land is taken up by golf courses than solar farms

The NI changes will hit business hard, but as under 21s do not pay ERS ni and the number of full time Uni students is dropping, there may be some silver linings

Ultimately the media and frothers on MN aren't the people the government need to convince of competence and pragmatism. It's people - a lot of whom will be outside the UK and it's poisonous political environment - who need to see the UK is a good bet for a long term investment.

That means a clear demonstration of doing things for the good of the economy and country as a whole, not an endless pandering to whoever is bunging the most this week.

According to a survey done in 2016 by Farmers’ Weekly 54% voted Leave, which is more than the general population, but not much more.
I suspect it was a particular type who supported Brexit. (J Clarkson, doyen of the gumboot tendency was a Remainer.)

@borntobequiet
I remember that survey.
I also remember driving around and seeing posters.
Farmers lied.

Although a reluctant one, as I recall. As was Mrs Thatcher.

Thatcher wasn't reluctant at all. She basically founded the Single Market.

Clarkson is in no way at all pro Brexit
nor was Thatcher

Clarkson thought Brexit ridiculous.

She was reluctant. I clearly recall - despite her campaigning for Remain in 1975 (that jumper !) - she was very wary of Brussels. Just look up how she handbagged the commission in the early 80s over the UK rebate.

However as you say, her vision was much more mercantile than had been expected. And thanks to her the UK aggressively pushed the single market (because it was of massive benefit to the UK) against a rather sceptical Franco-German alliance.

Above all - like Clarkson I suspect - she was a pragmatist.

I really despise a lot about Thatcher and her policies. However I will admit she gave way to advice and science. Which a lot of gay people have to thank her for, as it was the UK that led the way in AIDS research and public policies even if she hated the messaging.

You can add up every single Tory Minister since and including Cameron and still not get to 1% of the grudging respect I have for Thatcher.

As a final reflection, there simply would not have been a referendum had she been PM. The Rees-Moggs and their elk would have been soundly put in a tiny box to squeak from.

(Gore Vidal prophesied in the mid 1980s that when Thatcher was dismissed, it would be over Europe).

In what way is "reluctant remainer" different to "pro Brexit" ?

I knew a few people who just didn't really like the whole "EU thing". However, because they had been blessed with more than one brain cell, they accepted that leaving was simply not a great event if you like your trade with your biggest market free'n'easy.

Indeed, on these very threads, Remainers/anti-Brexiteers have repeatedly mentioned issues they had with the whole "EU thing". Making this very much a civilised exchange of views, rather than an echo-chamber circle-jerk.

Returning to Clarkson - I may be mistaken but I am sure I saw him once say that he couldn't really see the point of leaving and we "may as well remain". So on the spectrum a cool "remain" rather than wearing speedoes made of the EU flag and diving into a pool of ladies from each EU country for a campaign video level of fervour.

Mrs Thatcher emphatically wasn't pro-EU while in power as the EU didn't exist when she was Prime Minister. She was, as correctly noted pro the single market. On the "there wouldn't have been a referendum" point, well, their wouldn't as the EU wouldn't have been created, since she'd never have allowed Maastrict to be ratified in the UK.

I think this far into the discussion, it's fair to allow lapsing into a little shorthand every now and then. Particularly when it's hard to fight a rather bitter comment that I wish more people had been so fussy about facts during the run up to the referendum.

Personally I still think the whole referendum thing should never have happened. The UK simply does - and cannot - run by referendum. If people want that then maybe they can piss off to Switzerland.

However with that said, 1975 did set the precedent of a government abdicating it's role. So with that in mind a much better referendum would have been in 1991 on the changes the Maastricht treaty introduced. It was during this time I made the mistake of assuming an old friend of my fathers (in his 70s) would have been in favour of leaving the EC (as 'twas). Could not have been further from the truth. His lived reality was having been taken POW at Dunkirk and 5 years being shipped around Europe, a final stint of a forced march through "What was left of France" as he put it. "If a few silly rules can stop that, then it's a damn good bargain" or words to that effect.

Only Mrs T wasn't in power in 1991 was she ? She'd been ejected the year before. Arguably because of her Euroscepticism .

"Only Mrs T wasn't in power in 1991 was she ? She'd been ejected the year before. Arguably because of her Euroscepticism ."

It wasn't her Euroscepticism - it was that of the headbangers in her party. She was not Eurosceptic.

(Also interesting to see the desperate attempts at rewriting history from the Bexshiteers)

I said "arguably" 😀

Back in the 80s, there was actually quite a large number of Tory MPs who were very Europhiliac. Michael Heseltine springs to mind. They felt Mrs T. could have been much bolder about the European project and were not too discreet about it. They had a connection to the Tory "wets" who Mrs T made it her mission to slowly edge out of the cabinet as she continued her reign.

Of course the history we know is how autocratic she became and immune to advice which ultimately came to a head over the poll tax fiasco and it's descent into full scale riots within earshot of parliament. Ironically it was her total disregard for advice which sealed her fate which was decided on the steps of the British Embassy in Paris at an EEC summit. She immediately announced she would re-contest, with no thought to ask the top Tory table.

We then had a very black-ops leadership race with the mantra "anyone but Heseltine" ... echoing the sentiment that made Thatcher leader: "Anyone but Heath".

Or so I recall as I lived through it.

It's a fun game for all the family.

Personally I still think the whole referendum thing should never have happened. The UK simply does - and cannot - run by referendum. If people want that then maybe they can piss off to Switzerland.

I agree with your first sentence, but not the second.

If we do wish to incorporate referenda into our system, as in Switzerland or Ireland, then some consistent rules need to be drawn up. Not having each one under different rules, some advisory and some not. For major changes a threshold rather than a simple majority should have been built in. If say a 60% or 2/3 threshold had been built in to the last referendum then it would have failed. It wouldn't have shut the Faragists and Brexiters up, but now that they have got their Brexit, they still haven't shut up. It might have made someone like Cameron be more aware that he needed to "sell" the benefits of the EU.

https://news.sky.com/story/mind-boggling-brexit-rules-hit-british-food-exports-by-1633bn-a-year-13266080