Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Brexit mega thread part 12: David Cameron: Return of the King

1000 replies

SerendipityJane · 13/11/2023 15:34

(previous thread)

That's "king" as a suffix not a prefix. Also part of a phrase.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
173
OP posts:
Eve · 26/01/2024 16:37

To follow on Duncan's post - this commentary is from todays Evening standard, the final sentence is depressing.

It's time for what I like to call a post-Brexit check. The UK has suspended trade talks with Canada, pointing to disagreements over hormone-treated beef. This decision will reduce British farmers' access to Canadian markets, and leaves tariffs of nearly 250 per cent on British cheese. That. Is A. Disg... Oh, never mind.

The backstory to this, the curds if you will, is CETA, the trade agreement signed by the EU and Canada back in 2016. When the UK effectively left the bloc at the end of 2019, a rollover deal was put in place that contained, amongst other clauses, preferential access for UK cheesemakers. That has now lapsed.

It's bad news for the UK automotive sector too. Until now, Britain's carmakers have been able to sell vehicles into the country using the same preferential rules as EU carmakers. This is set to expire on April 1.

On the one hand, this is an example of where no deal (or rather, no new deal for a few special elements) might be better than a bad deal. It is widely recognised that the trade agreement the UK signed with Australia is lopsided in favour of the Aussies, in large part because the UK was so clearly desperate for any sort of a deal.

On the other hand, it draws attention to the central bind that any British government will find itself in. The UK has a large, rich and powerful trading bloc on its doorstep. Brexit does not change this, in fact it makes it more evident, because of the large costs of divergence – that is, the shifting away from EU regulations. And thus far, we haven't done all that much of it.

Step forward Kemi Badenoch. Earlier this week, the trade secretary and likely candidate for next Conservative leader, said the UK would have to diverge in order to make Brexit worthwhile. And in a sense, she is absolutely right. What was the point of enduring all the bother, expense and trade friction of Brexit if we don't diverge in ways that suit UK strength sectors? But there's a problem: divergence is frequently both politically and economically costly.

And so we are in this strange world of what trade analyst David Henig calls "performative divergence". That is – and with thanks to UK In a Changing Europe's divergence tracker – the government seeking 'symbolic wins' on divergence around things such as GDPR and bankers' bonuses, so it has something to point to at the general election.

Long-time readers of this newsletter will recall that prior to leaving the EU, Tony Blair would frame the choice Britain was facing as between a painful Brexit or a pointless one. We have ended up with a bit of both. That is because even without divergence, the reality is that as soon as you step outside of the EU's single market, you have to make time-consuming checks and fill out endless paperwork to prove your compliance.

Consequently, the UK is stuck in a regulatory no-man's land. Neither greater divergence nor rejoining the single market appears even remotely politically feasible. For now, muddling through this decades-long slow economic puncture appears to be the most likely outcome.

UK puts trade talks with Canada on pause over cheese and beef row

The two nations have been negotiating for the last two years after Britain left the European Union

http://clicks.standard.co.uk/f/a/8mHBf1NxRKZZnz5S3R7eNg~~/AAAHagA~/RgRnll0BP0RtaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3RhbmRhcmQuY28udWsvbmV3cy9wb2xpdGljcy9jYW5hZGEtdWstdHJhZGUtdGFsa3MtY2hlZXNlLWJlZWYtcm93LWIxMTM0OTYwLmh0bWw_bGlkPW95bzlqdmJjaXlnaVcFc3BjZXVCCmWyAdizZa6_6i5SE2VsYWxsbzFAeWFob28uY28udWtYBAAAAyM~

Peregrina · 26/01/2024 17:21

Brexit does not change this, in fact it makes it more evident, because of the large costs of divergence – that is, the shifting away from EU regulations. And thus far, we haven't done all that much of it.

While we may not have done so overtly, in practice we are doing so by not implementing new legislation which the EU has passed. I imagine that the larger firms who continue to export will in practice conform to EU regulations because it will be in their interests to do so.

I did like the clip about Cheese where Liz Truss was asked how many starter homes they had built. Um er, she couldn't remember. It was easy - zero.

Chersfrozenface · 26/01/2024 17:25

The last sentence in the Standard's piece may be depressing, but it's spot on.

Talkinpeace · 26/01/2024 18:17

Chris Grey predicted so much of this.
He must feel sad to be so vindicated.

GlobeTrotter2000 · 27/01/2024 07:48

The Canada and UK talk on trade were suspended by the UK as Canada wanted to export hormone treated beef to the UK. Did the EU deal with Canada allow Canada to export hormone treated beef to the EU? I don't think it did.

Figures on BBC TV yesterday were:

Cheese exports to Canada 18 million. That's almost the same what the UK spends on hotels every two days for arrivals from the channel.

Car exports to Canada 745 million. The UK spends that every three months on hotels for arrivals from the channel.

GlobeTrotter2000 · 27/01/2024 07:55

@Peregrina But the vote was to maintain the status quo. And Harold Wilson was a lot more wily that Cameron would ever be. He had the gumption to stand back, to avoid it being a referendum on his premiership.

UK joined the EU on 1 Jan 1973. The referendum was 2.5 years later in 1975. Is there evidence that UK was better off after only 2.5 years of EU membership?

My parents voted remain in 1975 on the logic it would avoid the hassle of reversing what had been done in the last 2.5 years. 41 years later they voted leave. I would trust a judgement based on 41 of hindsight more than one based on 2.5 years.

Thanks for confirming the 1975 referendum did not have a minimum majority for the result to be considered binding. So, it made sense the 2016 rederendum was the same.

GlobeTrotter2000 · 27/01/2024 08:24

@DuncinToffee Phew! That's a truly catastrophic batch of headlines for just one day...

But are they based provable historical evidence for events that have already happened, or more scare mongering about what might happen?

For example, is the UK happy to import hormone treated beef from Canada so they can sell 18 million pounds of cheese to Canada?

Both France and Spain objected to the 90/180 Schengen guideline as it was damaging to their economy. Logic was simple, the less time Brits can stay in France and Spain, the less money Brits will spend in those Countries.

So, I would say that France's decision to maintain the 90/180 is a gain for the UK as it means more is spent in the UK by Brits than in France. Let's see what the outcome is in Spain.

As for queues as Dover, the solution is simple. Travel by Air or Rail. Better still, go to a country who welcomes UK expenditure. For example, Portugal has e-gates for UK passports as does The Netherlands.

For Valentines day flowers, I can't see that many people being bothered.

As per lemonde.fr, UK pharmacies are cheaper than in France.

As for the DUP and the Border arguments in Ireland, how many in the UK are bothered?

OP posts:
DrBlackbird · 27/01/2024 09:49

Just caught up reading last few days of posts. I now realise the error of my ways, am now convinced that Brexit is a GOOD THING and ready to join the Brexiteer cult fold. That Canadian hormone fuelled beef and a couple of pig anuses will help me live longer and healthily. It is the pesky sometimes free press in the UK that’s such a downer on Brexit but everyone will join me and see the Brexit light when the Torygraph is finally run by the UAE.

Peregrina · 27/01/2024 09:58

Unlike you GlobeTrotter2000 I was around for the 1975 Referendum. In fact I worked as a Poll clerk on it. Voters volunteered the information how they had voted. My recollections were that it was the younger ones who had the most enthusiasm. That's only one polling station though in a 'Red Wall' part of Yorkshire, but remember at the time Labour were against the EEC.

For example, is the UK happy to import hormone treated beef from Canada so they can sell 18 million pounds of cheese to Canada?

Since the talks have just been called off, the short term answer is No.

As for queues as Dover, the solution is simple. Travel by Air or Rail.

And endure long queues there instead. This really is a stupid argument.

For Valentines day flowers, I can't see that many people being bothered.

Where is the Romance in your soul? When people 'Say it with flowers' on Valentines day it's not usually with tulips or daffodils. It's red roses. Red roses and the like are usually flown in from Kenya.

As per lemonde.fr, UK pharmacies are cheaper than in France.

Here I can go by the direct experience of some of my family who used to live there. You are not comparing like with like, Pharmacies stick to pharmaceuticals; they are not shops selling toiletries and make up, also. The same drugs are not available in both countries. In some cases what is on offer in France is a better product. What do people want, a cheap product or one which works? Generally my family thought that the health care in France was better.

As for the DUP and the Border arguments in Ireland, how many in the UK are bothered?

I hope you realise that NI is part of the UK? So a better statement would be 'How many in Great Britain are bothered?' I will admit, a good many neither know nor care.

But why do I bother answering you? You will just come back with answers telling me what it was like 50 years ago, when I actually know, and you don't. Or you will come back with suppositions presented as fact.

DuncinToffee · 27/01/2024 11:17

Thanks for the laugh Globetrotter2000, I am assuming your user name is ironic

HannibalHeyes · 27/01/2024 11:42

Globe will come back with more non-sequiturs, and loads of irrelevant links that Tufton Street (or Moscow) have lined up for her...

borntobequiet · 27/01/2024 12:00

GlobeTrotter2000 · 27/01/2024 07:55

@Peregrina But the vote was to maintain the status quo. And Harold Wilson was a lot more wily that Cameron would ever be. He had the gumption to stand back, to avoid it being a referendum on his premiership.

UK joined the EU on 1 Jan 1973. The referendum was 2.5 years later in 1975. Is there evidence that UK was better off after only 2.5 years of EU membership?

My parents voted remain in 1975 on the logic it would avoid the hassle of reversing what had been done in the last 2.5 years. 41 years later they voted leave. I would trust a judgement based on 41 of hindsight more than one based on 2.5 years.

Thanks for confirming the 1975 referendum did not have a minimum majority for the result to be considered binding. So, it made sense the 2016 rederendum was the same.

I voted remain in both referenda, the years of hindsight and clear memories of the UK prior to accession to the EEC/EU making it very clear that membership was a benefit.
Our vote to leave the EU was misguided and catastrophic in its impact, as becomes clearer by the month/year.
Tips on how to mitigate the inconvenient impacts of this foolish and reckless decision are so pathetic as to be deluded.

beguilingeyes · 27/01/2024 13:00

It's not just Valentine's Day though, is it. It's weddings, funerals etc. Almost all of our flowers come from Holland.

SerendipityJane · 27/01/2024 13:33

I hope you realise that NI is part of the UK?

Although a qualified part ....

OP posts:
Peregrina · 27/01/2024 13:34

It's all very well arguing that since the first Referendum didn't have a super majority specified neither should any subsequent ones. The real argument should be that a vote for a major change should require a super majority. At least that way you would know it was genuinely the will of the people, or at least those who bothered to vote.

When Cameron waffled about implementing the result, with a Remain vote, what exactly would he have implemented?

Talkinpeace · 27/01/2024 13:46

When I worked in customs clearance, we did the C16 / C88 forms for the flowers coming in to Covent Garden.
150 part groupages that took around a day to prepare PER TRUCK
and several hours to clear customs.
THe storage area for those trucks has been removed.

SerendipityJane · 27/01/2024 13:55

Peregrina · 27/01/2024 13:34

It's all very well arguing that since the first Referendum didn't have a super majority specified neither should any subsequent ones. The real argument should be that a vote for a major change should require a super majority. At least that way you would know it was genuinely the will of the people, or at least those who bothered to vote.

When Cameron waffled about implementing the result, with a Remain vote, what exactly would he have implemented?

Any move away from the status quo should have required a super majority.

The options - "leave" or "remain" were not "equal but opposite."

OP posts:
SerendipityJane · 27/01/2024 18:15

And it's already impossible to get some packet mixes. No idea if it's Brexity, but certainly a shrinking of choice.

OP posts:
SerendipityJane · 28/01/2024 10:22

So, in the past 5 years, the number of children living in destitution has tripled to one million.

Only trebled ? Poor show. You'd have thought with their top team on it we'd at least have quadrupled, if not increased it tenfold.

Otherwise what was the point of voting Tory ?

I hope party members write an complain.

OP posts:
SerendipityJane · 28/01/2024 10:40

Drifting OT but meanwhile, in the never ending psychodrama that is the Tory party, it's hard not to PMSL at Kemi Badenoch desperately trying to piss on the fuse she lit to displace Sunak, as there is a very real danger he will be kicked out before the election, and torpedo her shot at the top slot.

Remember that her role has become redundant, since the UK is now not going to diverge from EU standards.

OP posts:
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.