Brexit mega thread part 12: David Cameron: Return of the King

[SerendipityJane]

(previous thread)

That's "king" as a suffix not a prefix. Also part of a phrase.

@pointythings are you denying that leaving the single market has made exporting to the EU harder and has increased costs? I hope not.

Take a look at:

EXCLUSIVE: UK exports to EU are up 26.6% since the Referendum (facts4eu.org)

And

Britain’s services exports are booming despite Brexit. Why? (economist.com)

@HannibalHeyes But all of the main people driving Brexit only did so in order to make themselves wealthier. So that's a good thing?

Those from the lower social classes, C2 and DE, voted leave in the ratio 64:36

Those from higher classes, AB and C1, voted to remain in the ratio 57:43

Take a look at:

Brexit votes by social class 2016 | Statista

Based on the those statistics, I would say that it was the less well members of UK that voted for Brexit.

As for those who brought about Brexit take a look at:

12 people who brought about Brexit – POLITICO

I would say Cameron tops the list as he put the referendum on the table, but assumed that the result would be 100% for remain.

Corbyn is second. Many traditional Labour voters voted leave in 2016. So, Labour's attempt to ignore the referendum cost them dearly in the 2019 GE as people voted for Boris in objection to Labour.

Globe
Do you not get bored of reposting stuff the rest of us looked at many years ago ?

It's like every generation thinks they invented sex, maybe ?

She doesn't like answering the actual questions asked, so she tries to deflect by posting reams of irrelevant bullshit...

Using facts4eu as a source really doesn't reflect well.

@Talkinpeace Do you not get bored of reposting stuff the rest of us looked at many years ago ?

The link for the Economist article is from May 2023. Also, the link for facts4eu related to the UK's ONS data from July 2022. I would not call that years ago.

@HannibalHeyes She doesn't like answering the actual questions asked, so she tries to deflect by posting reams of irrelevant bullshit...

You stated that all people who drove Brexit, did so for their own gain. If that is correct, how do you explain it was the less well off who preferred Leave to Remain?

Were the 17.4 million who voted leave in 2016 all well off? I would say not.

Likewise how many well off people voted Remain? Central London did and that is the wealthiest part of the UK

The South East ok UK and Cornwall are well off areas, but voted leave. Likewise, Sunderland, which is a much less well off area in comparison, also voted leave.

You stated that all people who drove Brexit, did so for their own gain. If that is correct, how do you explain it was the less well off who preferred Leave to Remain?

Yes, the people who drove Brexit, not the gullible idiots who voted for it. Farage, de Pfeffle, Putin, Trump, Bannon, Legatum, the Barclay brothers, Murdock, etc. etc....

Which of those is poor?

As Globe like digging up old documents, this one from the government was pretty much spot on...

I would say Cameron tops the list as he put the referendum on the table, but assumed that the result would be 100% for remain.

Would you now? Do you know him personally?

I doubt it very much. Yes, he almost certainly thought Remain would win, but he was too stupid to think things through. He didn't seem to realise for example that some people would vote leave to give Cameron a kick in the teeth.

Nor I suspect did those Leave voters who voted on that basis think that we would have the hard Brexit we got.

@HannibalHeyes

The leaflet made the following statements:

What happens if we leave?

Voting to leave the EU would create years of uncertainty and potential economic disruption. This would reduce investment and cost jobs.

....

No other country has managed to secure significant access to the Single Market, without having to:

• follow EU rules over which they have no real say
• pay into the EU
• accept EU citizens living and working in their country

A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now – including for services, which make up almost 80% of the UK economy. For example, Canada’s deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making and is still not in force

Unemployment in the UK has reduced from 5.5% in 2015 to 4.2% in 2023. So, the statement and cost jobs was a pile.

Not all EU members are net contributors. So, the statement pay into the EU is also a pile.

Export of services has boomed since Btexit as per the Economist article of May 2023.

@Peregrina Would you now? Do you know him personally?

Don't need to know him. That he never made a plan for a leave vote proves he was certain remain would win.

Nor I suspect did those Leave voters who voted on that basis think that we would have the hard Brexit we got.

There was never any such thing as hard or soft Brexit. Even Tusk said that the UK either leaves or remains.

I remember in the early days there was talk of:

EEA
Norway+

However, when remain supporters defined democracy as ingoring how people voted with extensions and the Benn(y Hill) Act, it seemed to narrow down to two options:

Revoke Article 50 or;
Leave without a deal.

There was never any such thing as hard or soft Brexit. Even Tusk said that the UK either leaves or remains.

Funnily enough, I don't remember a PTO on my form, to allow me to tick what sort of Brexit we wanted, if the result was Leave.

I have come to the conclusion from your posts that having now got Brexit, you are somehow not satisfied with it. Don't blame us. Rees-Mogg had at one time thought that there should be a second referendum on the terms agreed. There wasn't.

@Peregrina Funnily enough, I don't remember a PTO on my form, to allow me to tick what sort of Brexit we wanted, if the result was Leave.

Not possible to have a PTO on the ballot paper as Article 50 had to be triggered before discussion on deals could begin.

Don't blame us. Rees-Mogg had at one time thought that there should be a second referendum on the terms agreed. There wasn't.

That's because of remain MP's attempt to get a second bite at the cherry. Many wanted a second vote with two questions:

1 - Leave with the WA signed illegally by T May.

Legal comment on the WA is that it would have locked the UK into the EU forever. So, it was a pay to remain WA. Thankfully, after T May was forced to allows MP's to see the legal advice, MP's (the UK's law makers) voted against the WA three times.

or

2 - Remain in the EU.

So, had remain MP's got their way, a second vote would have given the choice of:

Remain or Remain.

Not possible to have a PTO on the ballot paper as Article 50 had to be triggered before discussion on deals could begin.

Some posters do not understand a joke.
It would have been perfectly possible to print whatever we wanted on the back of the ballot paper. This was well before the rush to trigger Article 50.

It would however been a lot more sensible to have defined the terms of the Referendum more precisely, and imposed a super majority on the result. The Leavers would still have been free to continue to agitate to leave, had they so wished.

@Peregrina It would however been a lot more sensible to have defined the terms of the Referendum more precisely, and imposed a super majority on the result.

Did this happen in the 1975 referendum? I have searched, but not found any information.

No, it did not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum#Legislation

But the vote was to maintain the status quo. And Harold Wilson was a lot more wily that Cameron would ever be. He had the gumption to stand back, to avoid it being a referendum on his premiership.

Had the vote been No, then I could imagine that the same sorts of division would have arisen. The Yes vote didn't shut up those who were against the then EEC.

And, in "taking back control" news, we're going to do everything the EU decides to, but without any say in the proceedings. Just as predicted by those, you know, experts...

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1750633886814482694

Even Brexit supporting ITV are just laughing about how much prices are going to go up for all of us because the gullible and racist bought all the lies...

https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1750611222041424220

What is that? Brexit maths? Brexit logic?

Your comments on meat 'not up to standard' betray a startling ignorance of how the EU operates and a denialnofnthe fact that the UK is no longer in the EU. The pig parts were destined for the UK, which is not part of the EU any more. They were not destined for Germany, Ireland, Italy, Hungary, Netherlands, etc.

The UK now gets the parts that won't be sold within the EU. Standards within the EU are perfectly fine. Meats from former Eastern bloc countries that are sold within the EU are up to standard.

You vote for a bonfire of red tape and you get pig anuses. What did you expect? Business as usual and all the advantages of participation in a well-regulated market in animal products despite leaving the EU?

In the face of security threats in the context of war and terrorism in the middle east, warfare of many kinds in Ukraine, and ongoing political/ military shenanigans in west Africa, many Schengen states have increased security at their borders until certain dates in the first half of 2024, possibly to be extended. This move in the face of increased specific terrorist threats, increases in people smuggling, and in some cases infiltration by foreign agents is of course accommodated by the Schengen articles, because it was never envisioned that the EU would leave itself open, defenseless, and powerless to take action in the face of threats.

Meanwhile, the UK struggles to get a handle on the illegal Channel crossings despite all the promises of the Brexit peddlers.

It's been an utterly abominable 24 hours for Brexit news:

• The UK gave up on negotiations to extend our trade deal with Canada, leaving us worse off than when we were an EU member

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi…

• New incoming border checks will add £200 million a year to the cost of our food and drink.

eastangliabylines.co.uk/brexit-fallout…

• MPs were warned that the EU's upcoming ETIAS/EES border systems may lead to 14-hour queues to enter (the rest of) Europe from the autumn.

itv.com/news/2024-01-2…

• There were warnings of possible shortages of flowers for Valentines Day because of the new incoming border checks.

news.sky.com/story/roses-ar…

• A plan to extend visas for British expats in France from 90 to 180 days was blocked by France's Constitutional Council court (a decision which has no right of appeal).

lbc.co.uk/news/french-co…

• Rishi Sunak's pledge to ensure no future laws can create a border down the Irish Sea has gone down like a bucket of sick in TUV quarters. (And has sent the blood pressure of the usual suspect Brexiters sky-high.)

belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/ji…

• The EU's plans to increase bulk medicine procurement across the bloc risk creating shortages in Britain because they have very significantly greater buying power than the UK does.

theguardian.com/science/2024/j…

Phew! That's a truly catastrophic batch of headlines for just one day...

https://twitter.com/edwinhayward/status/1750673173069140381?t=zdMDVMyuUGEyE_5IT762WA&s=19

Same post, this time with the proper clicky links

t's been an utterly abominable 24 hours for Brexit news:

• The UK gave up on negotiations to extend our trade deal with Canada, leaving us worse off than when we were an EU member

https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68098177…

• New incoming border checks will add £200 million a year to the cost of our food and drink.

https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/brexit-fallout-200m-price-hike-looms-for-fruit-and-veg-imports/…

• MPs were warned that the EU's upcoming ETIAS/EES border systems may lead to 14-hour queues to enter (the rest of) Europe from the autumn.

https://itv.com/news/2024-01-25/traffic-gridlock-and-14-hour-queues-await-tourists-entering-to-europe-mps-told…

• There were warnings of possible shortages of flowers for Valentines Day because of the new incoming border checks.

https://news.sky.com/story/roses-are-red-violets-are-blue-fears-of-shortages-on-valentines-day-over-brexit-checks-with-the-eu-13056060…

• A plan to extend visas for British expats in France from 90 to 180 days was blocked by France's Constitutional Council court (a decision which has no right of appeal).

https://lbc.co.uk/news/french-court-blocks-allow-british-expats-stay-france-90-days/…

• Rishi Sunak's pledge to ensure no future laws can create a border down the Irish Sea has gone down like a bucket of sick in TUV quarters. (And has sent the blood pressure of the usual suspect Brexiters sky-high.)

https://belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/jim-allister-rishi-sunaks-offer-to-dup-on-sea-border-makes-a-nonsense-of-brexit/a1159820922.html…

• The EU's plans to increase bulk medicine procurement across the bloc risk creating shortages in Britain because they have very significantly greater buying power than the UK does.

https://theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/25/eu-plan-medicine-stockpile-uk-record-shortages…

Phew! That's a truly catastrophic batch of headlines for just one day...

A plan to extend visas for British expats in France from 90 to 180 days was blocked by France's Constitutional Council court (a decision which has no right of appeal).

I would need to scroll back, but wasn't one of our Brexiters announcing the move to allowing 180 days as now a FACT? Oops - crowed to soon. And 180 days when it used to be unlimited is not exactly something to celebrate.

And 180 days when it used to be unlimited is not exactly something to celebrate.

I remember Patel celebrating ending free movement.