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Brexit

Brexit mega thread part 12: David Cameron: Return of the King

1000 replies

SerendipityJane · 13/11/2023 15:34

(previous thread)

That's "king" as a suffix not a prefix. Also part of a phrase.

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HannibalHeyes · 18/01/2024 17:51

For as long as people vote for Conservative and Labour, the FPTP system will remain in place.

That's not what I asked. I asked if you thought it was fair.

Not surprised you swerved that one...

LouiseCollins28 · 18/01/2024 18:39

Peregrina · 18/01/2024 16:38

A democracy that cannot change it's mind has ceased to be a democracy.

Indeed so. We accept this for Parliaments and have to have an election at least every five years, and three years for Local Government, but with this particular Referendum, the result has to be cast in stone for all time. Eventually things will change, but it's anyone's guess how soon. Probably another 10 years at least.

No it absolutely doesn't have to be "cast in stone for all time" that's absurd. I made the same argument in making a case for the ref pre 2016 that only people who were of majoirty in 1975 could have voted then and that they were a smaller and smaller portion of the electorate as time marched on.

People are perfectly at liberty to campaign for the outcomes they want to see, so long as they do so lawfully.

The question was clear as day

The outcomes were clear. What people mean here is that they wanted a particula r "Leave" outcome to be set against the then present and very general "Remain" position, thereby vastly inflating the chances that Remain would win. Honestly, I thought Remain would win anyway.

Where the "second referendum" crowd would have had my support is if they had accepted the outcome that leave won and then had ref 2. Ref 2 with the options being leave with an arrangement agreed between the UK and the EU or leave without any arrangement in place would have been a totally legit ask. They didn't ask for that, they wanted a do-over and if you're any sort of democrat that's wrong.

In a democracy it is rather important though that the side that wins enacts what they promised to and the side that loses accepts the result. The para above shows the Remain side didn't do that, and seemingly some of them still don't. Anyhow, all old hat now,

Talkinpeace · 18/01/2024 18:49

I love the way people think that the UK's current electoral system
has always been the way it is now.
Such a lack of historical study

A bit like those who talked about sunlit uplands and holding all the cards !

HannibalHeyes · 18/01/2024 18:55

Oh grow up Louise. The case for a second referendum was that we'd finally actually know what Leave was supposed to look like. The reason it won was because it was presented as all things to all men. Many of the main campaigners of the Leave campaign said that we wouldn't be leaving the Single Market, etc. etc., so everyone voting Leave was voting for what they thought it was supposed to mean. The point of a second referendum was that then people could vote on what was actually going to happen. I suspect if the dreadful deal that we ended up with had been presented at the original referendum Leave would have lost by miles.

That, of course, is why the tax dodgers who funded and pushed the Leave campaign in the media (and, of course, Putin), didn't want a second referendum.

This is in no way an exercise in democracy. Democracy was subverted from the very beginning by those with the power to influence to get what they wanted.

Well done in making the rich richer...

Peregrina · 18/01/2024 18:56

^I love the way people think that the UK's current electoral system
has always been the way it is now.^
Such a lack of historical study

Arguably though, a big improvement on the situation 200 years ago.

HannibalHeyes · 18/01/2024 19:09

Shame it hasn't moved on since then...

SerendipityJane · 18/01/2024 19:24

You could make the UKs electoral system much more representative with very little change. Probably a billionth the effort that has - so far - gone into Brexit.

However, as they say in crime: cui bono ?

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HannibalHeyes · 18/01/2024 19:31

The problem is that the 2 main parties don't want the system to change because they want absolute power. It's particularly stupid of Labour, as it so obviously benefits the Tories far more. They're thinking of themselves instead of what is best for the country.

HannibalHeyes · 18/01/2024 21:08

"Brexit has destroyed any chance of levelling up". New report by @CambridgeEcon shows that red wall areas suffers more from #Brexit than London does – and it will get worse.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-has-destroyed-any-chance-of-levelling-up/

Brexit has destroyed any chance of levelling up

A new report shows red wall areas suffering more from Brexit than London does – and it will get worse

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-has-destroyed-any-chance-of-levelling-up

SerendipityJane · 19/01/2024 11:49

HannibalHeyes · 18/01/2024 21:08

"Brexit has destroyed any chance of levelling up". New report by @CambridgeEcon shows that red wall areas suffers more from #Brexit than London does – and it will get worse.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-has-destroyed-any-chance-of-levelling-up/

Sounds like a success then. People totally got what they voted for.

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SerendipityJane · 19/01/2024 11:56

I notice the UKJ won't benefit from the EUs Google taming (did you know all our data is in the US now ?)

https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/18/google_search_update_dma/

Google is changing search results for EU citizens

Ad slinger bends to the demands of the DMA

https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/18/google_search_update_dma

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DuncinToffee · 19/01/2024 14:01

From twitter

Phases of Farage:

2016: We'd be better off with Brexit
2016: The sun has risen on an independent UK
2023: Brexit has failed
2023: We were more competitive in the EU
2024: Our democracy feels dead

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DuncinToffee · 20/01/2024 11:07

Farage, 2 April 2016

If we vote to Remain on June 23rd it is the end of the steel industry in this country. Simple as that. We must Leave EU.

LaTricoteuseVieux · 20/01/2024 14:38

HannibalHeyes · 18/01/2024 19:31

The problem is that the 2 main parties don't want the system to change because they want absolute power. It's particularly stupid of Labour, as it so obviously benefits the Tories far more. They're thinking of themselves instead of what is best for the country.

Dead right. Labour are quite happy in what you could call a two party state. Anyone who doesn't vote for either of them is effectively disenfranchised because no matter what their MP does at a local level, they've generally little influence in parliament.

All that happens when one of the two parties is oisted is that they sit in opposition until it's their turn to have a go again.

SerendipityJane · 20/01/2024 15:36

LaTricoteuseVieux · 20/01/2024 14:38

Dead right. Labour are quite happy in what you could call a two party state. Anyone who doesn't vote for either of them is effectively disenfranchised because no matter what their MP does at a local level, they've generally little influence in parliament.

All that happens when one of the two parties is oisted is that they sit in opposition until it's their turn to have a go again.

One very easy quick change could be for candidates who do not win outright at in an election to "gift" their votes to another candidate. Especially if it was publicly declared in advance. That way you could vote Green (for example) in the knowledge that if the Green candidate doesn't win, they could gift their votes to (say) the Labour candidate. (The reverse might be Reform gifting their votes to the Tories).

If that means the Labour candidate wins over the previously top placed Tory candidate, then so be it. At least people aren't being so easily disenfranchised.

I am sure there are plenty of other quite small/easy changes that could really bring more voices into the debate.

It's hard to think of any system short of dictatorship that is quite as undemocratic as FPTP when the winning candidate decides they aren't going to work for over half their constituents.

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prettybird · 20/01/2024 16:44

To give the SNP its due, it continues to support PR even though it would result in them having fewer seats at Westminster.

DuncinToffee · 20/01/2024 18:14

https://www.ft.com/content/3be49734-29cb-11e6-83e4-abc22d5d108c

Britain has had enough of experts, says Gove

Audience questions were far less rowdy than they had been for Mr Cameron. A worker from Tata Steel’s Port Talbot plant asked how to vote to make his job safer. Mr Gove said Britain might be able to offer state aid that is not allowed under EU rules. “We could in certain circumstances. The free market is not a god,” he said.

Talkinpeace · 20/01/2024 19:42

I holidayed at Port Talbot during COVID (the beach is fab and it was REALLY cheap)
When those steel jobs go it will only be the lugworm factory left
and the hundreds of care home residents with congenital metal poisoning.

SerendipityJane · 20/01/2024 20:01

Talkinpeace · 20/01/2024 19:42

I holidayed at Port Talbot during COVID (the beach is fab and it was REALLY cheap)
When those steel jobs go it will only be the lugworm factory left
and the hundreds of care home residents with congenital metal poisoning.

The lyric about squandering your resistance for a pocketful of mumbles* immediately springs to mind

(*possibly a paradigm of synchronicity ?)

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pointythings · 20/01/2024 20:11

@SerendipityJane 'all lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest'

Damn those two knew what they were writing about.

prettybird · 20/01/2024 20:27

Talkinpeace · 20/01/2024 15:50

Bastards Angry

Complete and utter heartless monsters Angry

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