Brexit mega thread : part 9 : Winter is Coming

[Chevyimpala67]

Part 10 of our long running thread.

Not sure what to say, really, other than it is worse than I feared.

Strap in, folks. It's gonna be a rough ride...

If you said “I understand this country will be x% poorer in terms of GDP and that impacts growth, but I don’t care”, then I would think at least you understand the consequences of Brexit.

But you’re still talking about “getting through the hardest bit” which shows you haven’t realised that the economic decline is permanent (or at least until we reopen sensible trade channels with Europe).

The amount of time you spent reading erroneous claims about Brexit is irrelevant. You could spend equal time reading up favourably on Scientology but that doesn’t make it any less delusional.

I have said exactly that sort of thing on here repeatedly. I've also said that if it impacts me negatively I don't care about that either, if I'm x% poorer I have no doubt I'd still make the right decision. I'd still support is because its still the right thing to do.

The time I spent was overwhelmingly used reading Pro EU sources to attempt to convince myself that what I naturally thought was the best outcome, i.e. leaving, was if fact not the best outcome. All that effort failed to convince me that what my brain told me was right wasn't becuase the EU very clearly wasn't the project it's representatives and supporters claimed.

@LouiseCollins28 I seem to recall your motivations weren't economical. However, it would behove you to show a little compassion for those people who didn't vote to leave and who are now reaping the economic whirlwind in terms of their ability to eat, heat and so on. You may be reasonably comfortable, but very many people are not.

The responsibility for that failure lies both with those who didn't get on and do it ASAP and those who actively tried to subvert and stop it from happening at all.

Ah yes. Our current economic situation is due to those subversive remainers. You know, the ones who didn’t vote for what’s happening. Why not throw in blame for the war on Ukraine, climate change, rising inequality, corporate wrongdoing, and the Capital Hill riot on Remainers for good measure?

I’m sorry to be fatuous, but it’s taking the mickey, really it is to blame those who saw and rejected the economic, social, and political implications of the Brexit fantasy shitshow and the current lot of abysmal Tory politicians who got in on Brexit coattails busily ruining running the country for their own vested interests.

>the EU very clearly wasn't the project it's representatives and supporters claimed.

That doesn't mean EU bad.

However nothing in Brexit was/is what its supporters claimed/claim and that does it is bad.

The pendulum has swung much faster than I expected - none of the any questions/question time etc audience's are now showing support for brexit and mainstream current affairs have stopped ignoring the elephant in the room.

(there was a completely bonkers woman from the economist on question time this week, clearly not an economist, denying that brexit had anything to do with our current economic woes!)

If it impacts you and the country negatively in what way is it the right thing to do? What would be the wrong thing look like? Sounds to me you’ve convinced yourself because you’d don’t want to admit you made a mistake.

What you’re really saying is that you read pro-EU sources to see if they would counteract the Brexit brainwashing and they didn’t. Facts don’t tend to trump feels.

What if Brexit is “not the project its representatives and supporters claimed”?

Correct, my motivation wasn't mostly economic.

Point taken on showing compassion. I accept that this current economic shitshow is harder for people to accept if they didn't vote for Brexit, as I did. Just to note though, that's not accepting that Brexit is anything but the most minor contributor to our current travails.

EU is bad, absolutely no doubt at all. Witness the way they have behaved since we left as evidence. A club you want to be in should make it child play to leave. I know you folks won't accept that, I'm past caring.

Well quite - is any government or institution exactly what it claims to be? Does democracy or power manifest the way we believe or want it to?

Some people find it harder than others to admit that Brexit was a mistake. And of course some genuinely don’t realise yet.

It's the right thing to do because

a) it means we can afford to trade with growing, dynamic forward looking econonomies using agreements we make with them, not agreements the EU makes with zero regard for Britain.

b) We are no longer involved in the EU institutions. European Parliament, Commission etc. i.e. our laws are made by people I can vote to sack.

Seriously, please accept it when I tell you that I would give almost anything to bring that situation about, and Brexit has Finally delivered it. I would accept almost any level of economic or other personal privation to deliver that outcome. You might not agree with me, fine, you might think I'm stupid, als fine. I'm allowed to want what I want, and I want that more than ANYTHING else.

So you're basically a heartless zealot. OK then.

Because it’s not actually a club.Trade agreements with regulatory alignment take time to leave as you have to negotiate a new agreement. And then the PM has to be able to get the deal through Parliament….

I wouldn’t expect you to understand Brexit’s contribution to our current economic woes, so minimising it is par for the course.

Seems Andrew Neill is spot on.

www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/the-week-brexit-died-andrew-neil-sounds-the-death-knell-for-uks-split-with-eu-339071/

He added that Remainers are now “emboldened as never before” with the possibility of rejoining being discussed again.

Brexiteers, on the other hand, are having to confront the fact that “Brexit is increasingly a busted flush”.

They have been “betrayed by the very Tory politicians who told them to vote Brexit in the first place.”

He should have added "and fooled", although there are those that walk amongst us who - even as their wealth and prospects are shrinking - will never admit to it.

Just to note though, that's not accepting that Brexit is anything but the most minor contributor to our current travails.

Only the Government's own OBR tells us that it has had, and continues to have twice the negative impact that Covid had. Only an idiot someone as blinkered as you would consider that "the most minor contribution.

a) it means we can afford to trade with growing, dynamic forward looking econonomies using agreements we make with them, not agreements the EU makes with zero regard for Britain.

Only this is typical Quitling bullshit. We're making far worse trade deals than the EU have made and are making. Witness the Australian and NZ deals. Even those who made the deals are admitting that they are actually bad for our country.

b) We are no longer involved in the EU institutions. European Parliament, Commission etc. i.e. our laws are made by people I can vote to sack.

Yeah, that's going well. And we still have to abide by EU regulations anyway, because 90% of our exporters deal primarily with, surprise surprise, our nearest neighbours. Gravity has long been acknowledged to be the biggest factor in determining who you trade with. Only stupid Brexshitteers try to claim otherwise.

So your motivation was partly economic after all - trade is part of the economy.

I can’t be bothered to deconstruct your painfully naive ideas about global trade. These issues have been done to death since 2016 and if you haven’t bothered to read them or you have but haven’t understood them, it’s not worth my time to explain it all now.

Suffice to say you would apparently cripple this country economically in order to gain trade agreements with random countries that we did or could have agreements within the EU. I’ve no idea which you consider ”dynamic growing economies” but now we are a low-growth, backward-looking economy ourselves outside the single market, we are less rather than more attractive to any country. Do you see the US falling over itself to get a trade agreement with us?

This does all shed light on the source of your blunder on Brexit: a complete failure to grasp how trade works.

You are free to “want” what you like. But misplaced desire is no substitute for sound judgement.

Don't be bothered, see if I care.

In my opinion, you absolutely must understand that agreements we make ourselves as Britain are axiomatically better than those made on our behalf by any other body, because we have made them, not beacause of anything they do (or don't) result in.

To anyone complaining about the agreements we HAVE made, e.g with New Zealand, I say simply, compete! Compete, or die, you fuckers I literally do not care what outcome results, if that means more expensive meat for me, so be it, you had your chance to compete, and so far you've failed. Compete and win, or compete and lose, that is all.

P.S. people need to be paying the real cost of produts but the money needs to be going to farmers, not supermarkets, so pay more, get less and be happy, so long as your money isn't going to a supermarket. Oh and supermarkets should be sourcing worldwide for the cheapest prices, which I'm sure they aren't. No contradition, none at all.

Clearly, No I don't see the US falling over itself. That it elected the wrong President in 2020 is not something the UK can control .

Trump supporter as well then.

you absolutely must understand that agreements we make ourselves as Britain are axiomatically better than those made on our behalf by any other body

Sounds like xenophobic paranoia to me. Why would it inherently be better?
Because we’re just better?
English exceptionalism again Louise.
Look at the utter fools running this now.
You wouldn’t know good from bad if it stuck you in the face, because you’re blinded by your faux patriotic optimism.

I quite liked the fact another body deemed it unlawful to discharge sewage into my sea. You’re happy that that’s been overturned, because your judgement is basically crap.

In my opinion.

Crazy town.

@Lonelycrab yeah, I don't get it either. How could anyone rational prefer raw sewage in the ocean and the rivers because the decision to do that is taken on a national level? Me, I prefer clean water and if that decision comes from a supranational body - great, because clearly our own politicians can't be trusted with our environment.

Blind patriotism is terrifying.

According to the Times, Sunak is considering a Swiss-style relationship with the EU

The responsibility for that failure lies both with those who didn't get on and do it ASAP and those who actively tried to subvert and stop it from happening at all.

Yes, to the first part of this statement. I recall Frost and others going to meetings totally ill prepared and constantly threatening to walk away from talks, instead of making a full list of topics to negotiate on and working systematically through the list. Once Covid struck us all, it would have been a good move to extend the Transition phase - did they bother? No, the Brexiters, like youself Louis, wanted out at all costs and hang the consequences.

The second part ... those who actively tried to subvert.
I have to disagree with you there - we heard a lot about taking back control and we have a Parliamentary democracy. I believe it's the duty of our elected representatives to put forward arguments and debates and thankfully some did try. They believed it would be economic suicide for the country, and it would have been wrong not to say so.

As for We are no longer involved in the EU institutions. European Parliament, Commission etc. We were full members. The Tory party post Thatcher and Major chose to throw its toys out of the pram and have a sulk. They could instead have continued to be a vital force in the decision making, but chose not to.

Leaving - the rest of the EU didn't try to stop us. As you yourself are admitting, after arsing about for five years the Tory Government managed to withdraw and we are now out. But few complex arrangements can be undone in a moment, unless of course one side goes for total destruction and hang the consequences. This appears to be your opinion.

Because they are our laws, made by our lawmakers whom we can change.

Again, I literally Do Not Care what outcome results. I want our laws made by our lawmakers whom we can remove, that is acll.

Louise - are you aware that some of those terrible EU laws were ones proposed by the UK? The Single Market was largely a Thatcher creation. Do you want the laws that we made scrapped also?

BTW - we can't even remove all of our lawmakers. At least two MPs that I can recall, namely Nicola Blackwood and Zak Goldsmith, were rejected by their electorate and immediately bumped up to the Lords. We are now stuck with them unless they die.

I'd appreciate an example Peregrina. However, over yes to answer your question, IMO any law that we passed while the EU existed, i.e. since 1992, should be removed from law in Britain, no matter what its effect.