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Brexit

Brexit Megathread - Part 2 because it's not over by a long shot

992 replies

vera99 · 07/10/2021 21:36

Well getting to a 1000 posts didn't take too long so here we are.... everybody welcome!

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 07/10/2021 21:51

That filled up much quicker than the last thread - but as I said at the time, we seemed to be in a sort of 'phoney war' period then.

OrangeBlossomsinthesun · 07/10/2021 21:52

Marking my place

RoseStar · 07/10/2021 21:53

Marking - will have to catch up on the other one!

pointythings · 07/10/2021 22:00

Place Cat King - and I managed to get fuel today, which means I'm good for several weeks now even if I do get to do some archery this weekend.

Brexit Megathread - Part 2 because it's not over by a long shot
prettybird · 07/10/2021 22:39

Took a picture specially earlier today with which to Place Cat King as I saw the old thread was reaching its limit Grin

I think it was via BigChocFrenzy that I first learnt about Argentina and its declining fortunes.

In the late 19th century and early 20th century it was up in the 10 countries in the world in terms of GDP per capita - bigger than the US at the end of the 19th century, on a par with France and Germany, significantly larger than Spain and Italy Shock.

Following long periods of political instability beginning in the early 20th century, it dropped out of the ranks of developed countries Sad and is now classified as a developing country, although it has now improved to 56th in the world (having been much lower). Confused

I can see a similar decline happening to the UK Sad FUKD Hmm England Sad as it glories in its isolation and its imperial past Angry

Brexit Megathread - Part 2 because it's not over by a long shot
julieca · 07/10/2021 22:49

I didn't know that about Argentina.

prettybird · 07/10/2021 22:54

This is an article about Argentina from 17 years ago by The Economist https://www.economist.com/special-report/2004/06/05/becoming-a-serious-country

prettybird · 07/10/2021 22:57

@julieca

I didn't know that about Argentina.

I hadn't either so I went away and read up about it. And the more I read, the more I saw parallels. The UK (or its constituent parts) can't rest on its laurels. England in particular doesn't have many natural resources of its own and has a large population to service Sad

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 07/10/2021 23:04

Thank you, @vera99.

vera99 · 07/10/2021 23:21

Hi everyone it's going to be a long haul I'm afraid and we are going to need some laughs and cheers amongst the doom. This is good for a start...

OP posts:
vera99 · 07/10/2021 23:27

Actually, that's not funny very sad that those ladies who are probably good eggs of sorts were led to believe such nonsense and intangible sense of purpose and identity. I don't blame them it's the nasty fuckers of Farage and Johnson they are the real villains of the piece.

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prettybird · 08/10/2021 00:13

Oops - using a band's song without permission. Why does it not surprise me Hmm

Friendly Fires Brand Conservatives A 'Bunch Of W***s' After Use Of Their Song At Party Conference

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/friendly-fires-conservative-party-conference-song-blue-cassetteukk615dcc57e4b08d08062d4eb5?did=2689562&nciddtag=fcbklnkukhpmg00000001&utmmedium=Social&utmmsource=Facebook&utmcampaign=ukkmain&fbclid=IwAR1w5st1OmDZ7TjDYG6GcKYVQCn0Pyu5_Wzi10Vv8wQo7FSrAUs8l8h8tFY

Peregrina · 08/10/2021 01:30

What a pity the interview cut out at the point of if they looked ahead, what would the success of Brexit look like, what would be worth it?
I wonder if empty shelves, petrol shortages, a totally corrupt Government would feature?

But one thing about these sort of clips is that they always use people who don't seem terribly well educated. Let's see them interview the comfortably off, well heeled southern England Tories - they were as much responsible for the Brexit vote as the people on the clip.

mathanxiety · 08/10/2021 02:29

I posted this at the end of the last thread, on the topic of the Richard/Paula cartoon:

@LouiseCollins28

Presenting the "privileged" character Richard in the worst light possible and the "less priviledged" Paula as severely lacking in agency (which might or might not be true) is an interesting take.

What I find most interesting is that, in common with so many other dichotomous "the priviledged/wealthy are evil - boo!" type presentations is says absolutely nothing to anyone who's lives might be 'part Richard' and 'part Paula'.

I completely disagree that Paula is portrayed as someone severely lacking in agency. She goes to school. She gets decent grades. She gets a job in a restaurant kitchen. She applies for a loan. She finds herself in a position many, many women find themselves in - caring for a relative. She does not enjoy the kind of success that diligence in school and willingness to work are supposed to bring.

The point of the cartoon is to highlight how the privileged eventually come to see themselves as products of a meritocracy.
It questions meritocracy itself and highlights the way the concept of merit carries with it the concept of 'undeserving'. Those who fall into the trap of believing they live in a meritocracy are predisposed to see everyone's condition or situation, good or bad, as deserved.

The cartoon doesn't have to address the situation of others along the spectrum from Richard to Paula.
Meritocracy is the target. Not individuals or the classes they symbolize.

press.princeton.edu/ideas/a-belief-in-meritocracy-is-not-only-false-its-bad-for-you
In addition to being false, a growing body of research in psychology and neuroscience suggests that believing in meritocracy makes people more selfish, less self-critical and even more prone to acting in discriminatory ways. Meritocracy is not only wrong; it’s bad...

...Meritocracy is a false and not very salutary belief. As with any ideology, part of its draw is that it justifies the status quo, explaining why people belong where they happen to be in the social order. It is a well-established psychological principle that people prefer to believe that the world is just.

However, in addition to legitimation, meritocracy also offers flattery. Where success is determined by merit, each win can be viewed as a reflection of one’s own virtue and worth. Meritocracy is the most self-congratulatory of distribution principles. Its ideological alchemy transmutes property into praise, material inequality into personal superiority. It licenses the rich and powerful to view themselves as productive geniuses. While this effect is most spectacular among the elite, nearly any accomplishment can be viewed through meritocratic eyes. Graduating from high school, artistic success or simply having money can all be seen as evidence of talent and effort. By the same token, worldly failures becomes signs of personal defects, providing a reason why those at the bottom of the social hierarchy deserve to remain there.

This is why debates over the extent to which particular individuals are ‘self-made’ and over the effects of various forms of ‘privilege’ can get so hot-tempered. These arguments are not just about who gets to have what; it’s about how much ‘credit’ people can take for what they have, about what their successes allow them to believe about their inner qualities. That is why, under the assumption of meritocracy, the very notion that personal success is the result of ‘luck’ can be insulting. To acknowledge the influence of external factors seems to downplay or deny the existence of individual merit.

Despite the moral assurance and personal flattery that meritocracy offers to the successful, it ought to be abandoned both as a belief about how the world works and as a general social ideal. It’s false, and believing in it encourages selfishness, discrimination and indifference to the plight of the unfortunate.

Ever heard of the Prosperity Gospel?
It's another version of the backward logic of meritocracy, this time with God thrown in.

rrhuth · 08/10/2021 06:48

Placemarking (have no cats!)

Lonelycrab · 08/10/2021 07:11

Placemark hedgehog from me

Nice one Vera and everyone

borntobequiet · 08/10/2021 07:16

Thanks Vera.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 08/10/2021 07:30

Morning everyone. Thank you Vera

I woke up to blame Russia for the gas issue headlines on radio 4 this morning. dh turned off the radio before I had chance to rant.

How quickly will discontent with everything be shifted to blaming Russia for all our woes? We know Russia use gas as a weaponised form of bargaining and it seems fairly likely to me that they are behaving as usual. But watch how the Tories will seize on this as an excuse for everything.

rrhuth · 08/10/2021 08:18

Yes, blame Russia and China now we can't blame the EU. Surely people can feel themselves being jerked about?

Peregrina · 08/10/2021 08:20

mathanxiety - that's for that posting; a very clear analysis IMO of the 'meritocracy' situation. Where for example would Boris Johnson be if he'd been born into a poor family on a sink estate and gone to a sink comprehensive or if in Bucks or Kent, immediately marked out for the Sec Mod? I doubt very very much whether he would have got anywhere near being a writer for the Torygraph, MP, Mayor of London or PM.

Peregrina · 08/10/2021 08:26

I do think blaming Russia and China is a slight improvement though. Once the EU is no longer the bogeyman-in-chief it might just help pave the way for eventual re-entry into the Single Market and Customs Union - a Norway plus situation, which for many of us would be a tolerable compromise.

wewereliars · 08/10/2021 08:28

Tat's a great analysis of the meritocracy mathanxiety, it should be compulsory reading!

Brindle88 · 08/10/2021 08:31

If he had been born on an estate he would have been a feckless dad with loads of kids by different mums. Oh hang on…

wewereliars · 08/10/2021 08:32

Thanks for the new thread Vera

Peregrina · 08/10/2021 08:37

.... but he would probably have served at least one prison sentence by now.

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