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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Westminstenders: Put Your Faith In The Home Office

999 replies

pointythings · 08/06/2021 08:55

Because there doesn't seem to be a new thread yet. I'm no RTB or any of you other experts, but these threads need to keep going.

Give me a couple weeks and I'll be able to post cat placemarks!

OP posts:
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26
borntobequiet · 09/07/2021 18:06

@foxandcubs

Goodness me, Prettybird, do you believe everything you read on Facebook?
Yeah, prettybird, you credulous fool, you.

But I think we’ve all been told.

Gosh.

mathanxiety · 09/07/2021 18:16

The comment under the JRM alliteration tweet is brilliant:

"How's your business doing since moving it to Dublin?"

mathanxiety · 09/07/2021 18:37

And we can now have a fair immigration system.

I for one would love to see a detailed account of this, in your own words.

mathanxiety · 09/07/2021 18:51

Quite long, but here is a rebuttal of the Lewis-Frost contentions wrt the NIP by John Bruton in the Irish Times. Bruton represents the landed/proprietor wing of Fine Gael, still in many ways the backbone of the party. He is a former Taoiseach and importantly, EU Ambassador to the US. He speaks for the Irish establishment, and it can be assumed that he speaks more bluntly for the Irish government than the government does officially. He has extensive Washington contacts thanks to his stint as EU Ambassador to the US.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/john-bruton-uk-ministers-need-to-read-the-ni-protocol-they-signed-1.4613290?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true&s=09
The UK’s European Union negotiator and its secretary of state for Northern Ireland published a remarkable article in The Irish Times last week .

They complained of what they called the “inflexible requirement to treat movement of goods [from Britain] into Northern Ireland, as if they were crossing an EU external frontier, with the full panoply of checks and controls”.

It appears they never read the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol which is part of the Agreement under which the UK withdrew from the EU. For this is precisely what the UK agreed to, in great detail, in the Protocol.

Annex 2 of this Protocol lists the EU laws which are to apply “in and to the UK in respect of Northern Ireland”.

The first item on this very long list is Customs Code of the EU. This is a rigorous code with exacting procedures, as the UK knows well.

Also listed are EU laws on the collection of trade statistics, product safety, electrical equipment, medical products, food safety and hygiene, GMOs and animal diseases. The list is specific. It refers to each item of EU legislation by its full title.

The UK is fully familiar with all the legislation in the Annex, because the UK, as an EU member state at the time, took part in drafting each one of these laws. It also had a reputation as a country that applied EU laws more conscientiously than most.

These controls have to be enforced somewhere. This can be done either at a land border or at a sea border.

The UK ministers, writing in The Irish Times, say preventing a hard land border on the island of Ireland remains essential.

So, if the controls are not to be exercised on the land border in Ireland, where do the UK ministers propose to exercise them?

The two ministers make no attempt to answer this question. They offer no constructive suggestions at all, apart from using slogans such as “balance” and “flexibility” in the implementation of the very precise laws listed in the Protocol.

The ministers do not attempt to deal with the requirements for protecting Ireland’s position as a member of the EU Single Market. They do not deal with the possibility that, if product parts or food ingredients, that do not meet EU standards, can come into Northern Ireland, cross the border, and thus become incorporated in an EU supply chain originating here, our position as part of the EU Single Market is undermined. It would not be long before there would be calls from continental competitors for checks on goods originating in Ireland at continental ports and airports. All that would be needed to set that off would be a single event, perhaps to do with a scandal over food standards.

Let us not forget that the UK government has said they propose to diverge from EU standards in future. Indeed Boris Johnson said divergence is the “whole point” of Brexit. UK standards may be similar to ours now. That will not be the case five years from now.

At the end of the article, the two ministers say that, if solutions are not found (although they do not offer any), “we will of course have to consider all our options”. In diplomatic terms, for British ministers to use such words, in an Irish newspaper, is menacing.

A large non-EU state is threatening a small EU state, with whom it has a land boundary, with unspecified actions, because of the out working of an international Treaty, to which the larger state freely agreed, less than two years ago.

Nowhere in the article by the two ministers is there even a hint that they take responsibility for the Protocol they negotiated. If a business man agreed a binding contract a year or so ago, then did not like part of it, and wanted to renegotiate that part, one would expect him to be somewhat apologetic and to offer alternative ways of achieving the goals of the other party. But there was no hint of either contrition, or constructiveness, in the article of Lord Frost and Brandon Lewis . . . just menace.

It is clear from the article of the two ministers that they have no intention of using the grace period as intended by the EU, to allow traders to make adjustments to their supply chains. They intend to use the time inciting feeling against the EU and endeavouring to pressurise EU states individually, in the hope that the EU will dilute or corrode the legal foundations of EU Single Market, in the interest of domestic UK politics.

There are suggestions that the UK even wants the EU to recognise the new goods standards the UK will make, as somehow “equivalent” to EU standards, and give them the same rights to circulate in the EU as goods from the 27 EU states, that comply to the letter with EU standards. A dangerous precedent would be set. If the EU conceded this to a country that had left the EU, existing EU members would soon look for their own local exceptions to EU standards, and the Single Market would wither away.

Brexit was a British idea. Brexit means border controls. They should deal with the logical consequences of their own freely chosen policies.

borntobequiet · 09/07/2021 19:11

Once again illustrating the quality of many Irish politicians and commentators.
@foxandcubs, do you have a comment on the text mathanxiety has posted above? We’d be interested in your take on it.

pointythings · 09/07/2021 19:23

Let me offer a warm welcome to the new

Westminstenders: Put Your Faith In The Home Office
OP posts:
Peregrina · 09/07/2021 20:14

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Peregrina · 09/07/2021 20:20

Brexit was a British idea. Brexit means border controls. They should deal with the logical consequences of their own freely chosen policies.

But you would never guess it from the way Johnson and Frost behave.

jasjas1973 · 09/07/2021 20:27

Different name, same shite

HarrietPierce · 09/07/2021 20:37

I mean ending a statement in relation to Brexit with "job done", is naive
to say the least.

foxandcubs · 09/07/2021 22:59

But Harrietpierce the job is done. We have left and what's wrong with sovereignty

HarrietPierce · 09/07/2021 23:25

WE have left but the job is far from done, and we always had sovereignty.

TheHateIsNotGood · 09/07/2021 23:25

Seems Brexit is brexiting with all the difficulties, and then some, and that is what I voted for.

Not for one minute did I ever think it would be an easy thing to do, in fact I thought that the problems arising now would put off enough of the UK Electorate into voting Remain, like the majority of posters on this thread.

But that didn't happen, the majority of the Electorate, in the greatest turnout and votes cast since?, voted to Leave.

And did so knowing full well that it wasn't going to be an easy ride.

Maybe if many posters here shifted their mindset a bit to accommodate the views of others in a less extremist way, then they might have a greater understanding of why others, the majority, articulate their voting capacities in the ways that people do.

I've seen so much casting of aspertions here, and very many are very misplaced, that it seems many of you are best left to stew rather than attempt to engage and discuss anything with you.

I could suggest that you only voted Remain because you prefer your Passport was Red?

prettybird · 10/07/2021 00:07

But that didn't happen, the majority of the Electorate, in the greatest turnout and votes cast since?, voted to Leave.

Interesting caveat of "since?" to try to cover up the falsehoods....

  1. The majority of the electorate did not vote Leave: the majority just of those who voted did. Confused
  1. It was not the greatest turnout Confused. In fact most elections in the 20th century had greater percentage turnouts, although I'll grant that that there was a curmudgeonly attempt to fudge that claim and more people voted in the 1992 General election.
  1. I'll grant that more people - because it was a binary choice - cast votes "for" leave than had voted "for" or " against" any other choice. But given the growing population, if you're looking at binary choices, then you have to look at percentages. And as a percentage, significantly more people voted to stay in the Common Market in 1975 (67%) (and in fact only marginally less in absolute numbers than those that voted to leave in 2016, despite the electorate being much larger in 2016).
HannibalHayeski · 10/07/2021 00:07

"But that didn't happen, the majority of the Electorate, in the greatest turnout and votes cast since?, voted to Leave."

Another lie, often repeated by quitlings.

"And did so knowing full well that it wasn't going to be an easy ride."

What about "we'll hold all the cards" and " the easiest deal in history"?

Don't just make up shit. We know you're full of it...

prettybird · 10/07/2021 00:14

...and even though I look forward to a Saltire Blue 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 passport with an EU symbol on it Grin, the colour of my passport never factored in the slightest in my decision to vote Remain Hmm - because burgundy passports were never a mandatory requirement dictated by the EU Confused

TheHateIsNotGood · 10/07/2021 00:28

I wondered how long it would take the old hands to deliver...asking the same old, same old little questions that they've churned out since the Ref.

Not sure what point that perty is attempting to make. something of a rehash of voter qualification or something, which I can only offer the suggestion that he/she realizes that times have moved on a few years since the actual Ref vote.

And Hannibal offers another whataboutery opinion.

It's hard sometimes to accept that 'life' doesn't always operate in one's favour; but it's far easier to accept life and the operation of the world when you don't perceive yourself as central to it.

Never mind, I could hardly expect most Remain voters to ever understand coz all they want is red passports and erasmus innit?

HarrietPierce · 10/07/2021 00:45

"but it's far easier to accept life and the operation of the world when you don't perceive yourself as central to it."

But that's what Little Englanders do. It's English exceptionalism innit.

prettybird · 10/07/2021 01:01

Fact : electorate means "those who are on the electoral register".

Fact : 37% of the electorate voted to Leave.

Fact : 37% is not a majority of the electorate.

Fact : 33,614,074 votes were cast in the 1992 GE, which is a greater number than 33,551,983 that voted to leave.

Fact : 78% of those registered voted in the 1992 GE , compared to 72% of the electorate who voted in the 2016 EU Referendum. (And actually, the 1992 GE wasn't the biggest turnout - there had been higher turnouts).

I could go on....

But thank you for giving me the chance to demonstrate that yet again Brexiters have no understanding of facts and that they try to re-write history and claim that it was the greatest turnout ever Hmm

And that's before even addressing the fallacious claim that the electorate did so knowing full well that it wasn't going to be an easy ride.

Big Brother would be proud of you Hmm

HannibalHayeski · 10/07/2021 01:45

Oh, so I'm doing whataboutery now!

That's a bit rich from Hate - that's pretty much her entire output!

mathanxiety · 10/07/2021 02:54

We have left and what's wrong with sovereignty

What do you believe sovereignty to be, @foxandcubs?

What specific advantages does it offer to the UK?

borntobequiet · 10/07/2021 07:36

I could suggest that you only voted Remain because you prefer your Passport was Red?

Well you could but what would be the point, as no one before the Referendum said they would be doing this, whereas lots of Leavers explicitly said they wanted blue passports back, which they (wrongly) didn’t think was possible when in the EU. It was a marker of how poorly informed their thinking was and demonstrated a total lack of understanding of the issues, which of course are playing out now pretty much as predicted on these threads.
In the long run of things, we will go on, the UK will go on (well for a while at least, though increasingly less united), the economy will have its ups and downs, we will survive despite political and economic shocks, because ultimately people go to work, get educated, buy stuff and so on. We probably won’t turn into Venezuela or Argentina, shadows of our former nations, having squandered our riches. But we are already poorer in so many ways. Our import and export markets are deeply damaged and some sectors may never recover, the impact being felt hardest by many small producers, particularly in the agricultural and fishing sectors (oh the irony). For all Sunak talks up the financial sector, it is badly wounded and the direction he’s pointing it in, towards the path of low regulation, risks moving towards another crash similar to earlier ones. We are losing out culturally and scientifically in so many ways.
The only possible upside I can see is that if we wanted we could become far more self sufficient in jobs and manufacturing. But with a government unwilling to invest and intent on selling as much as possible to the highest bidder, especially non-UK bidders, that’s unlikely. And the shitshow over managing the pandemic, beset as it is with corruption, shows us how poorly anything is likely to be managed in the future. I don’t see Labour managing any better, as though probably less corrupt in the traditional sense (though in thrall to the worst sort of batshit wokery), it’s possibly equally incompetent.

TheElementsSong · 10/07/2021 07:41

Welcome to the new, angry and inarticulate 🐿!

jasjas1973 · 10/07/2021 07:49

Seems Brexit is brexiting with all the difficulties, and then some, and that is what I voted for

Not for one minute did I ever think it would be an easy thing to do, in fact I thought that the problems arising now would put off enough of the UK Electorate into voting Remain, like the majority of posters on this thread

Why did you vote for something that brings up, in your words, problems?
I voted remain precisely because it wouldn't bring up a load of issues to solve.
But mainly because 99% of the issues facing the UK are of our own governments making, the main ones being health, education, council services and adult social care plus the shocking state of our roads...

Leave promised vague benefits, none of which seem to have happened or look likely too.

Looking back over the last 5 years, as far as i can see, Brexit was about mediocre politicians getting into or clinging to power.

wewereliars · 10/07/2021 08:47

You won Hate, get over it