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Brexit

Westminstenders: Sleaze. The Return.

1000 replies

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2021 13:37

The Brexit Agreement is still not signed. The EU are still pissed off with our bad attitude and how we managed to a have better deal on AstraZeneca's vaccines which they don't seem to like anyway.

The Ireland / NI border is still a mess. Both politically and economically. This is apparently something that wasn't discussed pre referedum, with regular Westminstenders suffering from collective delusions over remembering differently and reading madeup stories which just happen to be dated prior to the referendum. Its a sign of how good fake news has got.

The lying architect of Vote Leave is complaining about the lying of Vote Leave's biggest champion and cheerleader, countered with the pm who cheated on his ex wife multiple times and ran off with a younger woman accusing his former aid of being deeply sexist.

The government is embroiled in numerous accusations of lining its own pockets following the brexit power grab by the right wing of the party. Which of course wasn't a worry pre referendum. As of course accountability generally.

In keeping with taking a lead on the world stage, we have seen through our promises to cut back on overseas aid, instead preferring to spend money on trading. This is well represented by our purchasing of 10million AZ vaccines from India with not much sign of sending aid to help with the unfolding humanitarian crisis there.

Our post Brexit foreign policy looks muddled at best. The new world order is a big confusing. We dont mind trading with regimes which have human rights abuses... As long as they are countries which are smaller than us and we can exploit. We don't particularly like China atm because we aren't getting much out of the shitting on others. Plus its not really proving a great opportunity for Westerners to line their pockets like other dodgy regimes because its generally closed to outsiders and this is even more true in covid times.

But don't worry, we will soon be able to go abroad again on our covid passports. The 17th May beckons when the penny will drop that efforts to integrate medical records with passport data which apparently border agencies are working on, isn't ready yet and that doesn't matter because other countries won't be ready to let us in yet, especially since we are outside the EU and EEA and we haven't been great at talking to them. And we probably will still have to quarantine on return anyway. (End of June is still optimistic but more realistic).

We've still to impose customs checks yet because we didn't want to do it in April in case that meant the shops would be empty when they reopened. So we still have that joy to look forward to. Great for EU exporters. Less great for uk exporters. For now.

Of course we have the May Council elections to look forward to, in which it will become apparent just how fucking useless and invisible Keir Starmer is and how Labour policies are not connecting with voters in spite of all of the above. Mainly due to navel gazing and an inability to get beyond their social circle. Any good ideas they do have are promptly nicked by the Tories.

Post Brexit talk of reviewing the Monarchy are also growing in steam...

If we look back it feels like the sleaziness of the early nineties has returned but with no prospect of joining the Eu, no John Smith or Smiling Tony to inspire, no coming Cool Brittania to cheer us up. Just sleaze tolerated and accepted, rather than rejected. And one massive debt than had been largely repaid.

Its hard to see where we go from here. We seem bewildered by geography and confused by technology. Unwilling to invest in science and no longer aligned with the right people to collaborate effectively.

Instead we are more pre occupied with in fighting.

As a friend said to me this week, they had started to watch alternative news channels to British based ones because she felt we had become so inward looking. She felt like our mentality was increasing like the US which simply was unaware of events and ideas beyond our borders. I think its a comment that has so much ressonnance.

OP posts:
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19
HarrietPierce · 16/05/2021 10:46

" Boris supported Leave"

Johnson weighed up which scenario was most advantageous for him and his mates.

pointythings · 16/05/2021 10:50

It's nothing to do with voting to leave the EU. It's to do with everything that has followed on from that. You may think that every undemocratic thing the Conservative party is doing is fine, because you support them. However, many things they have done have been shown by the courts to be illegal. To you this is evidence that the courts are packed with leftie luvvies, to us this is evidence that the law of the land does not matter to this government.

We are also not saying that we are on an inevitable road to classic Nazism - but fascist authoritarian and undemocratic governments exist in many flavours. I'm sure you're loving the current one. The rest of us are worried about what else may be coming down the line. We've already had a crackdown on protesting - what's next?

TatianaBis · 16/05/2021 11:03

@yellowspanner there’s a difference between authoritarianism which can be left or right; fascism which is right wing authoritarianism; and Nazism which has particular qualities distinct from other strains of fascism, including occult beliefs, eugenics and genocide. Spanish fascism cost around 500,000 lives which is horrific but not on the scale of the Nazis.

I haven’t see anyone suggesting a descent into genocide and crimes against humanity, we are merely discussing authoritarianism as the imposition of centralized political authority at the expense of political and personal freedom.

Generally, at the start of such regimes there are people who are awake and aware and see what’s going on, and people who are asleep, trust the government and don’t realize what’s happening until their rights are gone.

borntobequiet · 16/05/2021 11:15

@yellowspanner

I remember Militant Tendency moving into every branch of the Labour Party in Liverpool. Do you condemn that?
Well it didn’t do them any good in the long run, did it? There are very few committed Labour supporters on here, as anyone who read them with some attention would notice. Why would we bother with condemning an 80s left wing minority section of the Labour Party that hastened its own demise, and that of the far left in general?
Clavinova · 16/05/2021 11:40

TatianaBis
@ Clavinova
Haha. Countryfile.
In fact 80% of food is imported into the UK.
When imported ingredients are counted, the actual figure is over 80%.

I almost missed this post.

You have a funny idea of what constitutes a "fact." Your figure of 80% comes from an article published by Business Insider - who quote
an HSBC "research note to clients." More of an unsubstantiated suggestion than a "fact." As for Countryfile being a less reliable publication than Business Insider that is quite amusing as well.

(Countryfile quote the NFU, DEFRA and link to a House of Lords Committee Report in their article).

TatianaBis · 16/05/2021 11:42

It doesn’t but anyway carry on Googling.

Clavinova · 16/05/2021 11:56

*AuldAlliance
The Police, Crime and Sentencing Bill, curtailing the right to protest on the grounds of noise/public disruption, is another example of the slow but sure erosion of individual rights...it's a major red flag

Obviously not a red flag to Keir Starmer - he was going to whip his MPs to abstain on the bill instead of voting against it. Labour only changed their stance at the last moment following events at the Sarah Everard vigil.

Peregrina · 16/05/2021 12:02

You all seem determined that we live in a country with a government that is quietly pursuing a route to Nazism.

No we see a Government which is taking measures which are totalitarian - it will take a different form than it did in the 1930s, but if you are so sure that this is not happening yellowspanner why not try to refute those items on the list posted above?

OK you have with one, you didn't think the attempt to prorogue Parliament was illegal - but the Supreme Court judges, disagreed with you unanimously. Who has the greater authority - people who have studied and implemented the law for decades or some random on the internet?

Peregrina · 16/05/2021 12:15

and people who are asleep, trust the government and don’t realize what’s happening until their rights are gone.

And people who say More Please, because so far it hasn't affected them, and they don't expect it will.

LostToucan · 16/05/2021 12:25

And then there’s this:

Westminstenders: Sleaze. The Return.
Clavinova · 16/05/2021 12:30

we see a Government which is taking measures which are totalitarian

April 2018
Two former [Labour] home secretaries are calling on the government to put national identity cards “back on the agenda” after the Windrush scandal.

In a joint letter to The Times, Charles Clarke and Alan Johnson claim that if Theresa May had not abandoned plans to introduce ID cards as home secretary in 2010 then thousands of undocumented British citizens would have had their status regularised.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-s-time-to-reconsider-identity-cards-say-ex-home-secretaries-2p66gcbqq

Sep 2020
Tony Blair: It is common sense to move toward digital IDs.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54010432

Why were Tony Blair and John Major given such a prominent platform in the Remain campaign?

And in 1997, Conservative Prime Minister John Major prorogued parliament 19 days before it would have been dissolved anyway to hold a General Election. Critics widely accused Major of misusing prorogation powers to avoid the publication of a damning report into Conservative MPs taking cash for questions.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-parliament-prorogation-explained

Peregrina · 16/05/2021 12:31

LostToucan - Leavers and the Johnson groupies on this thread just won't care about his holiday in Mustique or who paid for it. He seems to be some sort of God to them. They have well and truly drunk the Kool Aid.

AuldAlliance · 16/05/2021 12:37

Clavinova

Would it be possible, just once, for you to respond with something other than but Labour/but Corbyn/but Starmer/but Germany/but France/but Barnier...? There is something almost pathological about your consistent refusal to engage with actual issues and your obstinate reference to what other people do/did/might do.

Few people on here are relying on Labour to do much in the way of opposing the current erosion of rights and freedoms, as would be obvious if you stepped outside the binary oppositions that lead you to presume that anyone who is not a Tory cheerleader must therefore be a Labour fan.

Do you think, irrespective of what Starmer or anyone else says, does or votes, that preventing people from demonstrating peacefully is A Good Thing?

Challenge of the day: answer without any c&p.

Clavinova · 16/05/2021 12:54

AuldAlliance
Challenge of the day: answer without any c&p.

Only if you stop posting hysterical nonsense.

Few people on here are relying on Labour to do much in the way of opposing the current erosion of rights and freedoms...

You might be right - just spotted this;

A Labour shadow minister has resigned her post after claims she tried to interfere in a sexual harassment case.

Kate Hollern has been accused of trying to "scare" away Tory MP Andrew Bridgen from helping the complainant.

At a tribunal into the case, Mr Bridgen said Ms Hollern told him there were rumours he was having an affair with the woman.

He claimed she added: "If I were you I would keep away from her, because you have a wife and baby and you would not want to lose them if it got in the papers."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57086574

Peregrina · 16/05/2021 12:58

Good to see people doing the honourable thing and resigning when they do something that appears not quite above board. Pity that Patel and Johnson don't know the meaning of the word honour.

pointythings · 16/05/2021 13:00

Challenge of the day: answer without any c&p

Challenge completely failed, obviously.

TatianaBis · 16/05/2021 13:12

It failed because Clav doesn’t have capacity to engage with political discussion. Knee-jerk C&P is apparently all she is capable of. It’s purely a disruption technique, rather than any genuine engagement with ideas on their own terms.

wewereliars · 16/05/2021 13:15

What I'm furious about is that these idiot brexiteers have screwed us all up, and consigned us all to a smaller, narrower future. I'm quite happy for them to sod off back to the 1970's but I object to being dragged along with them.

The people who are behind Brexit don't give a damn about this country or anyone in it. They then complain that other people, unlike them, aren't too stupid to see it.

AuldAlliance · 16/05/2021 13:16

Clavinova
Hysterical nonsense?
Please show me where.

In your c&pfest about Blair and Major, were you seriously suggesting that introducing national ID cards for all (which Clarke and A. Johnson referred to as a means of preventing a scandal akin to Windrush, but let's ignore that for the moment) and demanding photo ID for voting in a country that has no national ID card are one and the same thing?

Let's try a binary, "compare and contrast" approach...

Here's France, for instance:
To vote, you need photo ID and an electoral card.
A national ID card and electoral card are both free.
There is a fee for passports and driving licences, which can be used as alternative ID when voting. But various other forms of ID (including your healthcare card if it has a photo on) are also accepted.
So you can vote with appropriate ID without paying anything.

Making voter ID mandatory without making it possible to obtain any form of free ID is not exactly the same thing as introducing national ID cards.
Especially in a country where a passport costs £75-85, and a driving test alone (theory & practical) is £85.

Clavinova · 16/05/2021 13:31

As I suspected yesterday - some/most of the EU citizens who were detained and deported were not meeting Covid-19 requirements for entry into the UK. The London Economic quote Maria's friend - the friend reports that Maria spoke a man from the Canary Islands who "was also detained despite having a job interview the next day." So, the man was not planning to quarantine for 10 days as required (the Canary Islands are amber listed) and he probably didn't book and pay for the mandatory Covid tests for day 2 and day 8 either. Ridiculous that the journalist has used this example for someone who was wrongfully detained at the border.

Clavinova · 16/05/2021 13:40

demanding photo ID for voting

Former Labour Home Secretary, Charles Clarke (mentioned above) suggests using the photo ID card for voting as well. Mentioned in a video he produced several years ago - shows him having his photo taken for the card and he lists it's various uses - including for voter ID.

Clavinova · 16/05/2021 13:45

AuldAlliance
Making voter ID mandatory without making it possible to obtain any form of free ID ... Especially in a country where a passport costs £75-85, and a driving test alone (theory & practical) is £85.*

Where have you read that? Other forms of voter ID have been suggested, including bus passes, Blue Badges...

Peregrina · 16/05/2021 13:46

Ah yes, when it was a Labour idea, for people like Boris Johnson ID cards were a complete No No. Wasn't he threatening to eat his if they became compulsory?

With the way that things have changed over the years, having an ID card which can serve for a number of purposes could be a good thing. It ought to be subject to a proper debate. But Johnson and cronies only thought of it when the idea of voter suppression was behind it.

Clavinova · 16/05/2021 13:51

Ah yes, when it was a Labour idea, for people like Boris Johnson ID cards were a complete No No. Wasn't he threatening to eat his if they became compulsory?

2004 I believe.

AuldAlliance · 16/05/2021 13:53

Former Labour Home Secretary, Charles Clarke (mentioned above) suggests using the photo ID card for voting as well. Mentioned in a video he produced several years ago - shows him having his photo taken for the card and he lists it's various uses - including for voter ID.

Case A
Clarke, who is in favour of photo ID cards, has indicated they could also be used for voting.

Case B
The current gvmt has proposed that photo ID should be mandatory when voting, despite the fact that all forms of photo ID are subject to a high fee. The PM is on the record (though we know what the record is worth in his case) as saying ID cards are only fit to be eaten.

Can you see the difference, Clavinova?

Head. Brick wall. Bang. Bang. Bang.

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