Question for Leave voters who've changed their minds about Brexit.

[Kendodd]

Before I start, I know, hardly any have, even that eel bloke still supports Brexit. But for the tiny percentage who have -

Why did you change your mind?
Are you angry at all with the people who sold you Brexit?

I know lots of Leave voters are very angry about how its turning out, but they all seem to be angry with the EU for not doing what brexiteer politicians said the EU would do. Even the DUP still supports Brexit.

In terms of social agendas, equality, immigration policy, tolerance and support for high levels of government interference and rules it seems very left. I don't think capitalism or entrepreneurship have to be seen as right wing.

People often hold Scandinavia up as a good model of government. In all social welfare measures (health, education, lack of poverty etc) Scandinavian countries do very well. This rather begs the question why we don't adopt these policies?

Well they pay for those things with high taxes, high cost of living and a certain lack of freedom and overbearing government.

For example it's illegal to home educate and during covid parents could be threatened with legal/ss type action if they did not send their children into school even if there was someone CEV in their household. Yes they threatened with fines here but not with being able to take away your child and people also had the right to deregister and HE to avoid those fines.

It's bigger government interference than we are used to. I also get the feeling the people are more willing to conform 'for the greater good' than in our culture.

Though I think that's changing and the levels of immigration have caused some social unrest and likely taken some people further right in their political leanings.

This is part of why I find the whole left v right dichotomous take on politics and political parties damaging. There's no pick and mix! Perhaps that's where countries that have more political parties and frequently need meaningful coalitions for power have an advantage.

@TheHoneyBadger

Well they pay for those things with high taxes, high cost of living and a certain lack of freedom and overbearing government.

For example it's illegal to home educate and during covid parents could be threatened with legal/ss type action if they did not send their children into school even if there was someone CEV in their household. Yes they threatened with fines here but not with being able to take away your child and people also had the right to deregister and HE to avoid those fines.

It's bigger government interference than we are used to. I also get the feeling the people are more willing to conform 'for the greater good' than in our culture.

Not what i experienced, high taxes? yes i was paying about 50% but everything else was free or very low cost, superb cheap public transport, no need for private healthcare or education.

Look at how CV has highlighted educational inequalities, with millions of kids having no access to laptops and broadband.

We have lower taxes but then have shite adult social care.
Home schooling in this country has also had its problems, its not really a very good model for the vast majority.

Immigration was a concern when i was there too, like here, tended to be in ghetto's.

@Toptotoeunicolour

Also lived in Sweden, although it was a while ago. They were very left when I lived there but I think slightly less so now. For context though Jas, weren't you a Corbyn supporter?

Thought you didn't give a toss what i thought?

But to answer your question, yes i had high hopes for Corbyn, i liked a lot of Labours policies (not all) and no they weren't particularly left wing, quite similar to a lot of european centre left parties.

The free broadband, inc line rental, was silly, installation yes but on going - no.

However, i changed my mind about him, he was ineffective and his brexit stance was stupid.

I didn't say I didn't give a toss what you thought - I am never that rude either in person or SM, so feel I have to comment. I said I didn't want to argue the toss, which very different.

The swedes I know are mostly teachers and retired people who tell me life is expensive. Most people don't see things like private schools or health insurance as needs you know? If you can afford those things you're likely to not be someone having to worry about the cost of living or high tax.

No wonder labour has lost touch.

It's like people with money tend to forget that they're pretty much the exception not the rule.

Some of us don't even run cars you know let alone dream of going private for education or healthcare.

@TheHoneyBadger

It's like people with money tend to forget that they're pretty much the exception not the rule.

Some of us don't even run cars you know let alone dream of going private for education or healthcare.

But thats the whole point, in this country even the wealthy have to bypass basic needs and wants, such as Ed and health... so the less wealthy have to put up with shite.

Do you not see that a more left of centre agenda gets us ALL a more equal society?

Do you not see that a more left of centre agenda gets us ALL a more equal society?

Yes, I wonder if private schools and healthcare were actually illegal and so unavoidable would be see a big increase in quality of state services? Not suggesting this is done btw, just wondering. I remember reading once that a doctor can examine a five year old child in the UK and tell you, with a high degree of accuracy, what social class their parents are and that apparently this would be impossible to know with a Swedish child. Truly shocking and terrible reflection on our country. I am really quite ashamed of the poverty here compared to our northern European neighbours.

Yes Kendodd if the ruling classes had to live as the majority in this country do, i think we'd have far far better public services.

Instead our PM moaned he was struggling on his 165k p.a. salary.

Yet Labour are "out of touch" seems to be a one way ticket to no10 if you're a tory.

I am left of centre economically. I was addressing your denial that Sweden is leftist

And your denial that life is expensive in Nordic countries and pointing out your privilege might be obscuring your view.

@TheHoneyBadger

And your denial that life is expensive in Nordic countries and pointing out your privilege might be obscuring your view.

Lol i can't afford private ed or health and trust me, i never had any privilege growing up, unless you think my mum going to the social for coats was being grasping? but what i did benefit from was a 2nd chance at education and free HE, so i could improve my job chances, after messing up school. If it were now, i'd have stayed unemployed or in a poorly paid job, cuts in HE etc have led to even less opportunity for the poor.

I never said life wasn't expensive in Sweden, though it s comparative, i said their high rates of tax, means everyone gets a more equal share of the pie, better education/health and potentially a chance to improve.

I don't disagree with that. But yes that is privilege - being from a time where working class kids could go to university without being saddle by huge debts and a degree actually meaning something to your job prospects IS privilege!

You seem to think I'm arguing against left economics - I'm not. I was answering the questions, 'why don't we do that here' and pointing out there were aspects of it that might not go down well in the UK ie. more government control and higher taxes.

I have this semi useful analogy of what left government is like (the negative side - I'm more left than right and was labour till that became untenable). It's like those fucking endless letters when your kids are in nursery or primary to everyone about nits or the importance of healthy food. Literally every parent gets nagging endless letters instead of them just dealing with the actual parents who they know are repeatedly sending their kids in with headlice or mars bars and redbull in their lunchbox.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else.

ie. you don't need a whole population law and initiative - you just need to deal with the fuckers causing problems via their 'freedom of choice', not police everybody with rules when most of us don't need to be policed.

@TheHoneyBadger

I don't disagree with that. But yes that is privilege - being from a time where working class kids could go to university without being saddle by huge debts and a degree actually meaning something to your job prospects IS privilege!

No its not, i went to a FE college not uni but in any case, a decent education is a right, not a privilege. By considering it a privilege, we accept that we have no rights to better ourselves. Unfortunately, i think many have accepted this, hence social mobility has been lessened but whose fault is that?

Ours isn't it, we blame labour for not having decent leaders/policies blah blah blah and then vote Tory and wonder why things don't improve or even get worse.

The things the unions and labour govt fought for post WW2 have largely gone, we voted for that.

It's a privilege because kids now don't have the same access. Did you pay 9k fees at uni? Did you pay over £100 a week for a room? Of course it shouldn't be a privilege but it is.

I too went to FE college, I went to uni at 21 without parental support and had to work and take loans and an overdraft but I didn't pay fees (the fact it was the final year of no fees is what kicked my arse into gear to go to uni) and I didn't face the crazy rents kids today face even though I did my first year in London. I started at a crappy uni in London and got firsts all year and bargained my way into a decent uni for second year. It took me till 21 because I struggled with trauma and mental health problems through my teens and had to move out of home young.

I still consider myself privileged in the sense that I got my HE before it became a money making scam with a worthless piece of paper at the end of it. You're making it sound like because we were poor and had to be savvy and work hard and change our fates that means we weren't privileged but we were in comparison to working class kids now. I was also privileged that if you were reasonably presented and capable seeming you could pick up a job the next day as a part time thing or for the holidays. I was privileged that I was intelligent despite mental health problems and some messy experiences. And no you can't blame people and say it's because 'they've accepted' they can't progress or failed in comparison to us - they have it tougher that we did.

I think we are maybe arguing at cross purposes. You seem to be assuming I am right wing or a tory voter neither of which I am.

Thanks for the tune Hate

My originally polish but lived in sweden for decades now jokes that you're not allowed a sense of humour or to say anything that isn't government sanctioned 'right speak'.

My point isn't anti left it's anti the failings of the left and the failings of the right and how about coming up with a new fucking song.

the word 'friend' is missing between now and jokes. Brain is shite due to a meds switch I'm going through it seems.

Just injecting a little bleakish humour into what is a the Bleakiest February I've ever endured. Apparently, the lyricist, Hugh Cornwell, did his Phd in Sweden in the early '70s - so it's a valid POV.

And of course, if there's any chance to play a Stranglers tune, i'll take it.