Question for Leave voters who've changed their minds about Brexit.

[Kendodd]

Before I start, I know, hardly any have, even that eel bloke still supports Brexit. But for the tiny percentage who have -

Why did you change your mind?
Are you angry at all with the people who sold you Brexit?

I know lots of Leave voters are very angry about how its turning out, but they all seem to be angry with the EU for not doing what brexiteer politicians said the EU would do. Even the DUP still supports Brexit.

KennDodd It isn't because the EU "acted together" that there wasn't a huge price increase. We know that AZ is "at cost" and is therefore the vaccine most likely to address the pandemic world wide, but it has not been made public what conversations were had or with whom leading up to the decision to make it "at cost". It was very unlikely to have anything to do with the EU. So the world is not going to be saved by the EU.

I have no doubt that working together is better - we are the same on that. The difference between us is quite simply that I am sure that in its current form, the EU is not a force for good.

I think the criticisms about lack of awareness for NI are valid, but importantly, in a referendum, you cannot expect everyone voting to have a fully informed opinion on every aspect of the vote. I do not, even now, have a fully informed opinion about NI. I don't know any Irish people, have never been to Ireland. I know about my own work experience (close to the Commission for several years), my own experience of living in four EU countries and other countries not in the EU, the experience of my wider EU family, and I based my opinion on that experience. Other people are more directly affected by NI issues than I am so based it on what they knew. Fair enough.

I really don't share the sensitivity about Johnson. The Brexit stasis was awful and he was the only person who could change it, which he did and that's a good thing and probably what most of his supporters focus on. He'll either grow into the job like everyone does (none of us are the person we were 30 years ago) or he'll be out on his ear pretty soon. I think he'll want to stay to do the fun part of it now that the worst parts are behind him, so barring the fact that the salary is not that attractive, that's what he'll do.

I actually think it's a good counter balance to the US and China. And out of the three, I definitely think the EU acts best (although far, far from perfect). I remember during the refugee crisis of 2015, some refugees were interviewed and said the wanted to go to Europe because it's the home of human rights, meanwhile Farage and co were jumping up and down screaming 'they're not coming here!'

I really don't share the sensitivity about Johnson
Does his non stop lying not bother you? Or his complete indifference to the peace in NI? What about his racism and misogyny?

@Kendodd

I really don't share the sensitivity about Johnson Does his non stop lying not bother you? Or his complete indifference to the peace in NI? What about his racism and misogyny?

I think he's got a flexible approach to truth which may eventually be his undoing, and if so, it will serve him right. It's also possible that he will grow into the job and finally grow up - he's certainly bright enough to, but many of them are and there is a lot of competition. Hancock is growing into his job for instance. We've all grown into jobs that were difficult at first. Time will tell. Beyond that, I think there are far more significant things about him than his gauche attempts to be entertaining which I think are what you are referring to (without wishing to repeat) with regard to misogyny/racism.

I think the criticisms about lack of awareness for NI are valid

Well, you can blame the government at the time of the Referendum and the Remain campaign for that. I've just looked at the leaflet which was sent to every household setting out the reasons why we should vote Remain, and NI isn't mentioned.

And I don't remember NI or the GFA being mentioned as an issue at any time during the campaign. Can anyone point to anything that was written or said about it before the Referendum?

How long have you got ?

Look at the date.

And I don't remember NI or the GFA being mentioned as an issue at any time during the campaign. Can anyone point to anything that was written or said about it before the Referendum?
I do, it was one of the main reasons I voted remain. I also remember Farage successfully shouting down discussion about it on QT.

Anyway, you might not believe this but I really didn't want this to turn into the usual merits or not of Brexit. I actually quite admire people who can change their minds politically, I don't think it's a sign of weakness, I think it's a sign of strength. I should have worded the OP asking if anyone had changed their minds about Brexit, I had the DUP and the situation in Ireland in mind at the time though. And I have to admit I'm surprised NI Unionists are still all for Brexit and absolutely standing steadfastly by it. They must realise it opens the door to their very worse nightmare of a united Ireland.

@Toptotoeunicolour

I very much doubt if even one Leaver voted on the issue of vaccine roll outs. Many voted on the issue of EU incompetence, nimbler government, closer accountability. Vaccine supply is a clear result of nimbler governance. There will be many more advantages of nimbler governance over time.

Nope, consider this..... OxZ didn't work and the Sanofi vaccine did... where are we then? We'd be at the back of queue watching the EU storming ahead in vaccinations and calls for Bojo's head.

All the EU did was over stretch itself into a competence it knew nothing about, however, even though they messed up, imagine 27 european countries all competing for a very limited supply of CV vaccine? how would that end?

Ask exporters how nimble the UK govt was in its FTA with the EU ?

It was nimbler because they didn't have to agree with 27 countries the parameters (stating obvious here). Even that incompetent UvdL admits that 27 member states cannot act with the speed of one country, so not sure why you're trying to argue such a hopeless case?

@Toptotoeunicolour

It was nimbler because they didn't have to agree with 27 countries the parameters (stating obvious here). Even that incompetent UvdL admits that 27 member states cannot act with the speed of one country, so not sure why you're trying to argue such a hopeless case?

What part of "EU messed up" are you struggling with? So, i am not but you are not answering what i asked.

The point is, with vaccines, there was an element of luck, even in July, whe UK placed a Sanofi order, Kate Bingham said "we have no idea whether any of the vaccines ordered will work"

Thank goodness, out of all this mess, we will have a world leading vaccines industry going forward.

...and i do not think anyone can now say the brexit deal was a good deal for the UK, its a disaster down here in Cornwall... was that nimble Govt???
The UK had the chance for many years to be "nimble" they weren't, its just another meaningless word.

The point being it would always mess up in a situation requiring speed and dexterity. It has also shown it will, 'mess up' when it comes to putting it's hand in its pocket to subsidise the likes of Africa when it comes to paying for the development and production of non profit world serving vaccines in a crisis.

Even USA under trump no less dug deep and paid up front to ensure the development and production of vaccines.

You still keep ignoring this and pursuing the idea of the eu as some kind of morally superior entity than nation states when even our puny nation state contributed more than the eu representing 20 odd nations.

You also talk about China, USA and the eu as if the only choice was which do you think is the lesser evil. None of the above is a valid choice. Nation states acting in the interests of their own people with the reality and awareness that we are also interdependent in a globalised world is infinitely better and fairer IMO than some of the richest most privileged nations in the world banding together and saying us first and they can't say no because we're bigger and our combined power is unbeatable. Fuck that and fuck trying to dress it up as some kind of humanitarian progressive movement.

We went anti superstate, anti monopolies, anti monolithic government some time ago for good reason. Why the exceptionism for the eu?

I just want to eat some shellfish - the oysters and scallops that were exported to the EU but now the Commission finds them unsafe, as we're 3rd Country, although completely safe and desired, prior to the 1st Jan.

Yes please - I might be British but doesn't mean I won't eat some local, fresh, sustainable food - sounds good in every way.

Theoretically the unified approach of 25+ countries does appear to be a strong one on the international stage - but it doesn't seem to be turning out that way - going by the recent EU visit to Russia.

Nation states acting in the interests of their own people with the reality and awareness that we are also interdependent in a globalised world is infinitely better and fairer IMO than some of the richest most privileged nations in the world banding together and saying us first and they can't say no because we're bigger and our combined power is unbeatable

The history of the world acting in the nation state's interest is one of war and empire.

However, i also think the EU has got it completely wrong with Chinese finance initiative and the Mercosur FTA - which i hope doesn't go through.

That doesn't make it wrong to be part of the EU, improving and cooperating together.

I just want to eat some shellfish - the oysters and scallops that were exported to the EU but now the Commission finds them unsafe, as we're 3rd Country, although completely safe and desired, prior to the 1st Jan

Me too! love em!

But it's a bit like when my car insurance wasn't renewed on the 1st January, on the 2nd Jan, Aviva would no longer pay out, even though perfectly happy to on the 1st :)

jas
If your question is about the FTA, then that's got nothing to do with being nimble (or not nimble). You are really stretching to link the two.

Well, we'll have to do something about that won't we jas - I'm thinking of placing an order for SW scallops and oysters with the local fish supplier - enough to share these delicacies with the neighbours.

Scallops are naturally divine and, apparently, deep-fried oysters are similarly so, surpassing any slime-induced dislike.

I love oysters and scallops and would love to see more on the shelves.

And I keep saying I should stop eating seafood because of the environmental damage. I really love it as well though, it's hard to cut down (although I have).

I suspect quite a few remainers are very much questioning themselves over the vaccines. Pop over to a vaccine thread to find out.

And not just in the U.K. There are many articles in France and Germany questioning whether we were right to Brexit.

Ultimately, nation states can act fast in the interests of their citizens, a bureaucracy acting on behalf of 27 nations cannot.

If you are concerned about the poorer nations, the U.K. has contributed far more per capita for Coca-Covax than the EU and will also be in position to donate a good proportion of our own vaccines as we have overbought so much.

A friend of mine's a marine biologist (and apparently quite well know in the marine biology world) they say avoid scallops unless they're hand dived (which also makes them really expensive). Scallop fishing does terrible damage apparently.

I'm also trying to cut down on meat.

You can't get more environmentally-sustainable than the SW estuary sailboats that catch the oysters and scallops the EU now don't want Ken.

It's February, Covid Feb even - not the month to consider cutting down on shellfish, gorge it - the EU might well change their minds (again).

Hopefully by then, the 'home market' will have grown - and the EU might just have to pay more for our product.

You can't get more environmentally-sustainable than the SW estuary sailboats that catch the oysters and scallops

Are they hand dived?