Question for Leave voters who've changed their minds about Brexit.

[Kendodd]

Before I start, I know, hardly any have, even that eel bloke still supports Brexit. But for the tiny percentage who have -

Why did you change your mind?
Are you angry at all with the people who sold you Brexit?

I know lots of Leave voters are very angry about how its turning out, but they all seem to be angry with the EU for not doing what brexiteer politicians said the EU would do. Even the DUP still supports Brexit.

It was conservative 43.6%, Labour 32.1%, LibDem 11.6%, SNP 3.9%. Certainly Tories won way more than any other party but yes, not a majority of the electorate, only a majority of seats.

@Toptotoeunicolour

rather than the far right party it has become? Sunak invested billions in supporting vulnerable businesses. On the one hand you criticise him because you see that as billions lost, on the other you call them a far right party? Unbelievable.

They are, their manifesto is more akin to FN's or AFD's, they have nothing in common with the tory party of the past, Johnson purged so many moderates, even breaking the law to do so.

You might not like that but i 've read all 3 and there are striking similarities, the tories have actually carried out many of their policies too.
Unfortunately, the electorate in the UK have also moved to the right.

Have you even read Britannia Unchained?

If that's what you think I can only suggest you spend more time campaigning usefully instead of on Mumsnet. The truth will always out in the end and I'm sure if you have the benefit of right on your side, you will find it relatively easy to get reasonable thinking people on your side in such numbers that you are able to win the next election. I personally do feel represented so have no urge to do that or even argue the toss with you.

Thats your prerogative, though does beg the question why did you start arguing in the first place.

@Toptotoeunicolour

It was conservative 43.6%, Labour 32.1%, LibDem 11.6%, SNP 3.9%. Certainly Tories won way more than any other party but yes, not a majority of the electorate, only a majority of seats.
Or to put it another way -
38,264 votes = one Tory MP
866,435 votes = one Green MP

Completely agree about the Tory move to the right. I think one of their leaflets listing policy for 2019 was virtually the same as an NF leaflet from the 1970s (I think the 70s). Loads of, if you like, 'normal' Tory MPs purged and more worrying is the purging of the civil service.

38,264 votes = one Tory MP
866,435 votes = one Green MP

Tories won a seat for every 38,264 votes cast in their favour whilst Labour/SNP/Libs won a seat for every 58,268 in their favour, Lib Dems being the most inefficient at 336,038 per seat and SNP being the most efficient at 25,883 per seat (don't have numbers for Green Party so this excludes your number above, as they were barely in the running anyway).
I do appreciate the point about FPTP, but you were also monumentally let down by your leaders who were unable to work together to run an efficient campaign within the known constraints. Were they too interested in self-promotion to represent your interests, too incapable of cooperation or just too stupid to understand? Also let down by the 32.7% of the electorate who don't care enough to vote. Those people are your target for next time if you want to feel your views are represented.

I do appreciate the point about FPTP, but you were also monumentally let down by your leaders who were unable to work together to run an efficient campaign within the known constraints

We were all let down, the question of EU membership was too complicated and multifaceted for normal folk to make any real decision on it (and thats anyone on here and 99% of MPs)
Who knew that the european space agency is nothing to with the EU but Erasmus is?
Or that the UK has benefitted from years of banned 3rd country imports of shellfish but now out of the EU, that same ban stops UK shellfish going to the EU?
The Fal Oystercatchers certainly didn't when they cast their vote, their industry is about to fold because of their choice.

That 'normal folk' bit is a part of why remain didn't win and labour are bleeding members and voters even in the face of an incompetent and clearly immoral opposition.

Labour is supposed to be the party of normal folk, working with and understanding their needs and concerns not sneering at them and assuming they're thick because they don't agree with you.

Normal folk in normal towns have seen what, for example, total free movement of labour actually means for pay and rents and job opportunities. There are genuine issues and concerns that haven't been allowed to be discussed or represented without middle class ideological leftists crying bigotry and ignorance and alienating their traditional core voters.

Working class people at that end of the scale also weren't benefiting from Erasmus grants or the unaffordable aspiration of sending their children to study overseas.

You also had the reality that Corbyn and the original left ideologically are not remainers. Protecting workers rights and importing workers from lower income but higher education countries don't make any kind of bedfellows.

Corbyn is not a remainer at heart and therefore he also lost his 'man of integrity' usp because he didn't have the courage to say leave but reframe the rhetoric of why and to what ends.

If Corbyn had been allowed to stand by his core values and acknowledge the EU was not compatible with the interests of British working class labour and why labour would have won.

Instead we ended up with a party currying woke favour over Europe and pretending not to know what a woman is and signing up to pledges that would see women expelled from the party for wanting to retain women's sex based rights.

They fucked it up hugely and can't regain power without the working class, unions, the grass roots women they've shat on through their unquestioning allegiance to gender ideology, the teachers, the people competing for low end jobs and rented accommodation etc etc.

In pleasing a very vocal privileged minority they have lost their core support and their identity and any clarity of who it is they're actually representing.

British politics is a mess but again that's not the issue here. And that needs tackling from within our borders not an external imagined saviour.

@TheHoneyBadger
Could not have articulated this any better than you just have! Bravo 👏

@lifestooshort123

It was obvious before the vote that it was always going to make things worse for almost everyone. It sounds as though you still can't get your head round the fact that some people hold a different view to yours and that both sides have some validity. I voted leave and haven't wavered but you carry on with your nasty attacks if it makes you/the situation feel better.

It isn't about views. It's about having an understanding of how international trade works, international laws, economics, law and the structure and vulnerabilities of the British economy and political system. All factual subjects that you can go and study if you'd like to.

@Toptotoeunicolour

Everyone with any sense or any children or grandchildren and a basic grasp of what this means wishes it hadn't happened. It was obvious before the vote that it was always going to make things worse for almost everyone. Before the referendum was announced it was nowhere on the list of things the British public cared about. Does anybody still think it took place for their benefit? If so, they are deluded. The vaccines situation has revealed the ineptitude of the Commission - it was always there and anyone who has worked there or in or close to our own government knew it, but now it's centre stage with lives and the economy depending on it, so I think it is not for you to call other people "deluded".

The EU is not about vaccines. It is a long term international cooperation that was our best chance to mitigate some of the effects on us of climate change, hostile global powers, the shift of power and money to hostile nations and the worst effects of globalisation on our freedoms and standard of living. Oh and protecting our personal freedoms and data and physical security, food security and cybersecurity, none of which the UK can do in isolation.

Well you know Brexit was all about the rich keeping their money offshore while the EU were going to clamp down on it.

More fool you for believing the bullshit.

@Kendodd

Yet it has to be a global initiative if we are to beat this.

Completely agree. Nobody's safe until everybody's safe.

Brexit voters don't want to hear this. By definition they are nationalists.

[quote Morsmordre]@TheHoneyBadger
Could not have articulated this any better than you just have! Bravo 👏 [/quote]
Thanks. It'll be duly ignored of course or labelled ignorance but I think this is the crux of it. I'm politically homeless now.

@TheHoneyBadger No it won't, its an interesting POV, one that i can agree with a lot of.

We had the chance to put controls on FOM, we didn't, the first thing the Tories did was scrap the funding for areas hit especially hard by immigration.
My area Cornwall votes Tory everytime, despite poverty, deprivation but very little EU migration.
I know working class uni students who have used Erasmus, i have worked in europe and i was brought up on social security, its our own attitudes that prevented more using Erasmus.

Until FPTP is consigned to the bin, we are stuck with the choice of Lab or Con and for most of our post war Govt's the UK has chosen the conservatives, with or without Corbyn/woke/trans rights.

We are fundamentally a right wing country.

See I don't think we are. I think we're probably quite left in our views on economics, welfare, equality etc compared to much of the world but quite right in terms of security, crime, immigration, not being told what to do or having government be overbearing etc.

It's about a party getting that balance - a tory party that was more generous in funding public services and welfare or a labour party that was tough on crime and could have sensible discussions about the impact of immigration and not be overbearing in it's control would be hugely successful.

I think we're probably quite left in our views on economics, welfare, equality etc compared to much of the world but quite right in terms of security, crime, immigration, not being told what to do or having government be overbearing etc

I think the British like the idea of better welfare etc but are then right wing when it comes for paying for it, its for others, not for us to pay.

On immigration, i agree, there was a time in 2000's where any questioning of migration was seen as bigotry, unfortunately, its now gone to the other extreme, where racism is now accepted as part of the greater good.

Forgot to say, i used live in Sweden, the idea that the UK is left of centre in its views on economy welfare etc is incorrect.

What difference does it make if people now regret their vote? If anything I think it is more likely.tje other way around with Remain voters realising the world has not come to an end and it looks like we have got quite a few trade deals now as well as being ahead in the vaccines.

@caringcarer

What difference does it make if people now regret their vote? If anything I think it is more likely.tje other way around with Remain voters realising the world has not come to an end and it looks like we have got quite a few trade deals now as well as being ahead in the vaccines.

Interesting POV. This vaccine roll out hasn’t helped the Remain cause at all, with the initial doom & gloom of the Brexit apocalypse just not materialising.....yet

Your point is an interesting one though. I wonder how many Remainers are out there that may have now pivoted in their decision, thankful that we have now left; due to the inevitable delay there would have have been in vaccine rollout should we have been tied up in EU Procurement and at the back of the queue. 🤔

I wonder how many Remainers are out there that may have now pivoted in their decision, thankful that we have now left; due to the inevitable delay there would have have been in vaccine rollout should we have been tied up in EU Procurement and at the back of the queue

Well, they'd be a bit stupid if they thought that, considering that we were effectively in the EU when the decisions were made & that the head of the MHRA said they utilised EU rules to seek emergency approval of Pfizer etc.

A tory government wouldn't have joined the EU's procurement plan regardless of brexit.

Jasjas but Sweden is far from centre so that may skew your view. We're way left of America and much of Europe is heading right. Look at Macron.

@TheHoneyBadger

Jasjas but Sweden is far from centre so that may skew your view. We're way left of America and much of Europe is heading right. Look at Macron.

Believe me, Sweden isn't particularly to the left, the element of capitalism and business entrepreneurism is very strong.

Also lived in Sweden, although it was a while ago. They were very left when I lived there but I think slightly less so now. For context though Jas, weren't you a Corbyn supporter?