Westministenders: Where's my milk and cheese?

[RedToothBrush]

The 'smooth' exit from transition now leads to a million and one little things that you can't get hold of or took completely for granted.

Why is sainsbury in NI selling spa milk? Why can't you get hold of your favourite food stuff?

Its a slow strangulation of the country.

In which you get to learn all about the merits of the EU and what a donkey Johnson really is.

I agree with cat I think - Labour has to play the long game here.

No one should believe that Brexit is over. Much worse is to come. There is going to be some major political upheaval in due course, as "project no shit Sherlock" unfolds, and supply chains up sticks and move wholesale to the EU. It's already starting with the cancellation of ferries - people who know say that Holyhead and Fishguard will not even survive as ferry ports.

I think Starmer understands this, but crucially there is nothing he can do on Brexit. What's the point of being in favour of free movement when it's not even possible at the moment anyway? Not politically possible but not legally possible either. That's over, for at least 5 years and that is a lifetime in politics.

But maybe then Starmer should be smarter when answering questions? Tory MPs duck questions and get away with it, so when someone like Andrew Marr asks about FoM, Starmer should just reply firmly that his immediate task is to hold the Tories to account for their handling of Covid. T

Starmer not saying he is in favour of freedom of movement when he said he would bring it back during his leadership bid makes him look like just another lying politician. I am underwhelmed by him, he comes across as someone without principle or passion.

I suppose that the problem with having an honest lawyer as a party leader is that they ask and answer questions like an honest lawyer, which doesn’t appeal to the general public. I mean, I quite like Starmer and want him to do well. But he’s got the sort of voice and presentation that makes me want to stop listening. (I didn’t have much time for Corbyn but always found him pleasant and interesting to listen to, and didn’t disagree with much of what he said.)

I think some people would also interpret that answer as evasion, Peregrina.

RTB has written elsewhere about the effect of social media and populism (& how closely the two are intertwined). I've found her analysis very helpful over the last few years. But I'm no galaxy-brain thinker, and I just see all of us struggling with a terrain where the time and space necessary for complexity and nuance have been diminished - and no real solution to that.

And I do think that is part of what's going on with Starmer - he's both trying to work within that and is trapped by it.

In other news, I see Parler has been effectively shutdown by Amazon, Apple and Google. I'm hoping RedToothBrush is going to post an analysis of that on the 'inauguration' thread!

Misti's point about there being no route to freedom of movement legally and politically at the moment is spot on.

That's what Starmer is saying.

The fact that a lot of people want him to say something else - for a variety of reasons - tells us a lot about our present political/cultural situation.

For example, despite saying we want politicians to 'tell the truth', that isn't a simple demand.

It tells us a lot - but I genuinely don't know what the solution is.

I think some people would also interpret that answer as evasion, Peregrina.

But when the Tories do this, or blatantly lie, as people like Johnson and Patel do, they get a free pass. That is the problem - other parties are held to a much higher standard. A Labour party in power wouldn't have got away with a tenth of what the current Government has been doing.

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@Peregrina

I think some people would also interpret that answer as evasion, Peregrina.

But when the Tories do this, or blatantly lie, as people like Johnson and Patel do, they get a free pass. That is the problem - other parties are held to a much higher standard. A Labour party in power wouldn't have got away with a tenth of what the current Government has been doing.

Oh god can you imagine the headlines if Corbyn had put Britain into lockdown and payed peoples wages while off work

CORBYN TURNS UK INTO USSR

For example, despite saying we want politicians to 'tell the truth', that isn't a simple demand.

Absolutely. I see it all over twitter and not just from leavers and trump supporters. Plenty on the left who are in absolute denial about the realities of Brexit.

Starmer was sold as a leader that would forensically hold the government to account every step of the way. The goalposts have now moved and Starmer is apparently going to wait. and wait. and wait. Until he simply strolls into Downing Street in 2024.

This is the equivalent of a boxer deciding he will beat his opponent by allowing them to punch him in the face until they tire themselves out, fall over and get counted out. It isn't good enough.

Brexit is done. It is done in the respect that there will be little acknowlement that the negative impacts are related to Brexit. The UK (what is left of it) may seek to rejoin in some form but that is a generation away.

The opposition should be doing what Labour are supposed to be strong on - opposing poor working conditions, unemployment, poor housing etc. Centrists wanted Corbyn to be held to the highest standards - they should demand the same of Starmer. Giving him a free pass because the government have an 80 seat majority or the GE is years away won't cut it. Who is supposed to speak for the disenfranchised in the meantime? Not everything is about Brexit.

For eg until very recently there were still people who believed in nonsense campaigns about "European citizenship" (egged on by politicians who should know better).

[quote JustAnotherPoster00]Businesses that choose to hire Trump administration alumni will, the editor said, be held to account.

"Forbes will assume that everything your company or firm talks about is a lie," the magazine's editor Randall Lane wrote. "We're going to scrutinize, double-check, investigate with the same skepticism we'd approach a Trump tweet," Lane added.

www.businessinsider.com/dont-hire-former-trump-officials-forbes-editor-warns-businesses-2021-1?r=US&IR=T[/quote]
Of course in their own Trumpy echo chamber that will merely "prove" that they are right and the establishment is against them.

Misti's point about there being no route to freedom of movement legally and politically at the moment is spot on.

So he needs to say this - then go into how his job is to put the people of the country first, not enrich cronies, constantly bring it back to how the Government is letting the people who voted for them down.

I was wondering last night how Attlee's Government would have fared - I don't think Attlee was particularly charismatic. There were factors in his favour - there was a vision to pin ideas on with the Beveridge Report of 1942, a genuine coalition with talented people, and Attlee himself doing the day to day running of the country while Churchill did the world stage meetings. Plus the huge shake up with people being moved around the country and thrown together with people they might not have met before.

Where do my musings get me? Well, the vision is one, this is needed.

Peregrina

'But when the Tories do this, or blatantly lie, as people like Johnson and Patel do, they get a free pass. That is the problem - other parties are held to a much higher standard. A Labour party in power wouldn't have got away with a tenth of what the current Government has been doing.'

It's baffling for me. 🤷‍♀️

A while ago, I read someone saying that the past five years had brought them to a new understanding of 'propaganda' and 'ideology'.

They'd realised it's demand-driven - that is, people really, really want to. Relieve something and they will hunt and seek to find any straw that supports it, then put in the work themselves of making it work as part of a belief-system.

Yes, there are people out there, churning out utter propagandist nonsense, dangerous beliefs and the rest.

But it works not because of some wild magic on the part of the propagandists but because the recipients are - in the main - already more than willing, and happy to put in the work.

So, yes, I think many people are really happy to put in the work giving the current government something of a free pass.

I find it so odd.

On the one hand, you look at the current government, you can see they expelled a lot of their number before GE 2019, you can see they are a completely different entity to what went by the name 'Conservstive' previously, you can see they legitimised and helped normalise Trump.

In the other hand, you can also see a concerted will to just render all that 'invisible' and to see it all as 'business as usual'.

It can make your head explode. 🤷‍♀️

I was wondering last night how Attlee's Government would have fared

Labours magic money tree again, a national health service and whos going to pay for that, I already pay for my doctor and we rich already pay too much tax, bloody communists, after all Im sure Labour caused the 1929 financial crisis

Of course in their own Trumpy echo chamber that will merely "prove" that they are right and the establishment is against them

Very true DG what are they with out their perceived victimhood

I think politically I am quite some way apart from the GhostOfFrankGrimes, but I think we have effectively said very similar things - the emphasis needs to be on how Johnson is failing the people who elected him.

JustAnotherPoster - I remember reading about the 1945 election and some upper class woman lamenting that "they have elected a Labour Government, and the country won't stand for it." Thus amply demonstrating who they thought mattered in life.

there was a vision to pin ideas on with the Beveridge Report of 1942

Ironically, had German won the war, they would have introduced that to the Reich. Hitler was most impressed ...

@GhostofFrankGrimes

Starmer was sold as a leader that would forensically hold the government to account every step of the way. The goalposts have now moved and Starmer is apparently going to wait. and wait. and wait. Until he simply strolls into Downing Street in 2024.

This is the equivalent of a boxer deciding he will beat his opponent by allowing them to punch him in the face until they tire themselves out, fall over and get counted out. It isn't good enough.

Brexit is done. It is done in the respect that there will be little acknowlement that the negative impacts are related to Brexit. The UK (what is left of it) may seek to rejoin in some form but that is a generation away.

The opposition should be doing what Labour are supposed to be strong on - opposing poor working conditions, unemployment, poor housing etc. Centrists wanted Corbyn to be held to the highest standards - they should demand the same of Starmer. Giving him a free pass because the government have an 80 seat majority or the GE is years away won't cut it. Who is supposed to speak for the disenfranchised in the meantime? Not everything is about Brexit.

Quite.

Also 'Starmer' s ratings are good' doesn't really cut it.

We are in the middle of a pandemic with millions in financial trouble and the government seemingly under performing. We had a massive crisis with the truck drivers. We've got an ongoing issue with brexit and not being able to export / import freely.

And Labour is just behind the Tories. I think they were ahead in some polls for about a week or two.

I have to ask the question 'why aren't they doing better than that?'

Is it really good enough?

Especially if there are boundary changes as planned before the next election.

the emphasis needs to be on how Johnson is failing the people who elected him.

Yes. If people believe, for example, that Johnson has done his best over COVID then I see this as failure of the opposition.

Peregrina 'I think politically I am quite some way apart from the GhostOfFrankGrimes, but I think we have effectively said very similar things - the emphasis needs to be on how Johnson is failing the people who elected him.'

I follow Starmer quite closely, and I see him doing just that.

But ... more widely: yes.

I agree.

I think this is urgent, actually.

Right now, we're in a catastrophe.

Two hospitals in London have cancelled cancer treatment.

We are being urged to blame 'other people' for this catastrophe. 'Other people' who are 'not following the rules'.

It's nonsense: the responsibility lies with the government.

And I think we're not many steps away from being urged to 'blame hospitals' for taking this step.

There's so much to say about this, and so little time and space to tease out the nuance, and the many steps that take us to this point. And that is a problem.

Given the slagging he was getting on here i went and watched the starmer/marr interview.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-55609747

He did not say he was abandoning the FOM commitment - it was marr that said it. Starmer kept saying that he will inherit the thin deal in 2024 and the idea that after 4 years of negotiation the eu would be ready to reopen negotiations on the deal simply was not a runner.

To those complaining - is he right? & would labour stand a chance of election if he campaigned (starting now) on the basis of reopening negotiations?

If by 2023 there was a groundswell wrt renegotiation that platform might have a chance - but campaigning for that now is an open goal for the right and an easy distraction for them against any attempt to hold the government to account for the daily clusterfucks.

Unless you're in government idealism changes nothing.

And on other threads we see that some people think that Johnson is doing his best, no one could have dealt with a pandemic etc..

He did not say he was abandoning the FOM commitment - it was marr that said it

But that became the headline. As with Callaghan's "Crisis, what crisis" which again he didn't say.