Deal!!!!!!!!

[Bathroom12345]

Just been announced

@Kaliorphic

Christ, I was a remainer but after all this turmoil I wouldn't support rejoining. Not now. I think the UK will be fine.

There would quite clearly be no appetite for rejoining right now. But as a PP pointed out, if this deal was what people were voting for in 2016, it is extremely unlikely it would have won.

Over the coming years, the UK will move closer and closer to being a member state as it seeks to improve its agreements and deals. Eventually rejoining will be the final logical step.

A no tariff/free trade deal is a brilliant outcome.

Doesn't include services though and 80% of our economy is services so it's not as good as it sounds by any stretch.

The loss of financial services passporting is likely to lead to a huge loss of tax revenue which will impact public services across the country (25% of tax revenue is generated in the city of London).

Pretty gutted about professional qualifications gained in the UK not being valid in the EU as I hold one myself and a lot of my work was done for European based clients who recognised it. Also essentially means architects, accountants, consultants, tradespeople, etc will find it very difficult to sell their services to any customers based in Europe.

@MarinPrime

Some remainers on mumsnet will be disappointed. They were convinced Johnson was going for no deal and gleeful about the prospect of brexiteers suffering the consequences.

No, absolutely not, and how dare you??

I'm relieved we have a deal but there is obviously no way on this planet that it will be as good an arrangement as we had.

But accepting the crumbs from the table is still 1000% better than being shut out in the cold.

I do ponder the disbelief of 15 year olds in 50 years' time as they examine the craziness of Brexit for their GCSEs, though.

I do ponder the disbelief of 15 year olds in 50 years' time as they examine the craziness of Brexit for their GCSEs, though.

It will go down as a humiliation and the end of us being a soft world power. You can't be a major world power without trade. To be at the top table and essentially already have the best deal of the worlds largest trading block was something we should have been proud of. Unfortunately Empire nostalgia, English exceptionalism and a fair bit of xenophobia gave us ideas way above our station.

I read that pretty much all major European nations who have had Empires over the last few hundred years all suffered some sort of national humiliation in the 20th century and so have a different, less jingoistic outlook of the world whereas we have gone in the opposite direction over the past 50 years. This will be our national humiliation in years to come, essentially inflicting The Treaty of Versailles upon ourselves economically. The best case scenario from this deal is that our GDP essentially only drops by 5%, that's pretty horrific by anyones standards.

It will be another Suez. Unfortunately, not enough people remember how much Suez humiliated us. Probably due to our dreadfully biased press.

But accepting the crumbs from the table is still 1000% better than being shut out in the cold.

It reminds me of an elderly Dutch person telling of the 'Hunger winter' when the Nazis were trying to starve out the people of northern Holland - some bread came from Sweden. She said it was like being in heaven having bread. But which of us would swap a loaf of bread as a daily diet instead of proper meals?

'I do ponder the disbelief of 15 year olds in 50 years' time as they examine the craziness of Brexit for their GCSEs, though.'

I very much doubt it. There won't be an 'EU' as others will follow. It will return to being just a single market which was the idea in the first place before Brussels got too big for their boots.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'I do ponder the disbelief of 15 year olds in 50 years' time as they examine the craziness of Brexit for their GCSEs, though.'

I very much doubt it. There won't be an 'EU' as others will follow. It will return to being just a single market which was the idea in the first place before Brussels got too big for their boots.

Oh, this old canard (that's French, you know).

Any signs of other countries thinking of leaving?

Didn't think so...

My earliest political memory is of my parents looking desperately worried and talking about War and Suez. Which of course meant zero to me.

It wrecked Eden's reputation and I believe that he had been seen as competent until then.

OH and BTW the Single Market was Mrs Thatcher's idea.

@AuldAlliance

Leaving Erasmus will contribute to killing off MFL learning (what's left of it) in the UK, taking soft power along with it. Ireland will benefit to some extent.

Trying not to too much at the fact that the "alternative" Turing programme, about which nothing is known despite those involved having had 4 years to plan it, has a name that doesn't exactly bear witness to tolerance and open-mindedness.

This is the craziest shit I've read on here.

I was at Oxford, which back then was not part of the Erasmus scheme. There were still plenty of MFL students all of whom did a year abroad in 3rd year.

In fact, iirc Erasmus is meant to be for people who don't study languages to do a year abroad in the middle of their degree which is really just a waste of time. They can do it before or after on their own time and dime.

There won't be an 'EU' as others will follow.

What gives you that impression? If anything it seems as strong as ever, most polls showing 90%+ support for it in many nations and the political turmoil and cost it has caused here showing European voters that it's generally a good thing.

Not to mention other geographical blocks (Latin America with Mercosur and AFTA in SE Asia for example) are trying to replicate it because going up against big business and major superpowers like China, America and Russia is better to do as one rather than alone as you're negotiating from a position of strength.

As my mum used to say "Half a loaf is better than none"

Apart from we used to have all the loaf.

We've lost so much!
Free trade in Services and by services that means a chef wont automatically have his/her qualifications recognised in the EU, not just an Accountant in their 2nd home in Provence.
EHIC will soon be noticed when mass tourism resumes again.

We still have to stick to EU stds if we want to carry on trading, still don't have control of our seas, no agreements on defence, foreign policy, climate.

So of course this is better than the alternative but no one should be cheering.

@AuldAlliance

Leaving Erasmus will contribute to killing off MFL learning (what's left of it) in the UK, taking soft power along with it. Ireland will benefit to some extent.

Trying not to too much at the fact that the "alternative" Turing programme, about which nothing is known despite those involved having had 4 years to plan it, has a name that doesn't exactly bear witness to tolerance and open-mindedness.

At my son's Uni, lots of students do their "foreign" year in Canada, Australia or the Far East - probably more than go to EU unis. They've had strong links with overseas Unis (EU and Non EU) for many years and welcome students from all over the country to their campus via reciprocal agreements.

Evidence? And how much do they have to pay?

The great thing about Erasmus is that it enables the poor students to have a year studying abroad. If you can fund going to a US university, you're not exactly on the breadline...

no agreements on defence

What EU wide agreements have we had on defence previously? The Lancaster House Agreement is Brexit proof, and most of the ties we have are with NATO.

He was so passive aggressive about us “choosing to give up all the rights and benefits”

But we are choosing to give up all the rights and benefits!

The great thing about Erasmus is that it enables the poor students to have a year studying abroad. If you can fund going to a US university, you're not exactly on the breadline.

I did a year in the US as part of my degree, and just paid UK fees to my university, and accomodation was actually cheaper than back here. The only thing I needed to pay above and beyond what I would have here was the flights. If the university offers a sandwhich year or a semester abroad, you don't pay the international fees, you pay your university. I'm not saying it's good Erasmus has been taken away, but there are other opportunities that hopefully universities will explore with countries.

@HannibalHayes

Evidence? And how much do they have to pay?

The great thing about Erasmus is that it enables the poor students to have a year studying abroad. If you can fund going to a US university, you're not exactly on the breadline...

They pay the same as they pay to their UK Uni, i.e. the £9250, covered by student loan. They're also eligible for student loan for the living costs abroad (as they would be in the UK). Accommodation costs in, say Canada, are said to be around £6,000 which is very similar to UK student accommodation. The most expensive option is USA, but there are plenty of cheaper options (Canada, Malaysia, Australia).

How much water will flow under the bridge - Scottish Independence, Irish re-unification?

Ireland doesn’t want reunification. We couldn’t afford to support NI!!!

@SebastianTheCrab

It's telling that you think your personal experience at Oxford in the past allows you to speak for MFL students in UK HE institutes in recent years. Were many of your Oxford peers aspiring to be MFL teachers in secondary schools?

Has it crossed your mind that it might just have been ever so slightly easier for your Oxford peers to gain access to exchange places abroad than it was for students from less prestigious universities? Which might explain why Oxford could remain outwith Erasmus.

I've observed the language skills of UK students from 15 [non-Oxbridge] universities worsen dramatically over the last 15 years, and seen them pick up slightly after Erasmus mobility here in an EU country. Almost all the incoming students from the UK and Ireland (100/year) who come to my EU university are language students, whatever your personal experience at Oxford in the past may have been.

Many of those students hope to become MFL teachers in the UK - their Erasmus mobility helps them become better linguists and provides them with cultural experience and knowledge that helps make their knowledge less abstract and allows them to enthuse pupils better.

If current MFL students don't have access to Erasmus grants and the relative ease of procedure offered by a big, structured programme, the obligatory third year abroad is likely to become unaffordable on top of fees and UK universities will be inclined to phase it out, thus making MFL less attractive and increasing dept. closures - there have already been lots of those and more are in the offing, post-Covid.

Moreover, in the past, MFL students who had an obligatory third year abroad very often worked as language assistants in other EU countries. However, those are also reciprocal: as the teaching of MFL in UK schools has decreased since becoming non-obligatory, the number of places available to EU language assistants has dwindled and therefore so have the corresponding places for UK MFL students looking to teach in EU countries.

Student mobility is not a waste of time or dimes - it allows those not fortunate enough to attend Oxford to benefit from some advantages that might otherwise be inaccessible.

I’m not used to Erasmus but did a year at expensive US university from Aus on exchange. There were many set up around the world. If the demand is there on both sides, which it would be, I don’t see why not.

Adam Schwarz
@AdamJSchwarz
What was promised vs What's delivered:

"Exact same benefits" ❌

"Don't need to follow EU rules" ❌

"£350m for NHS each week" ❌

"More money for farmers" ❌

"Norther Ireland not separated" ❌

"More money in your pockets" ❌

"Same security benefits" ❌

#BrexitDeal #Brexit

We had deferred fees back then so didn’t pay. The US student $28k or whatever held the spot open for the exchange.

And, if we can set up this wonderous new scheme allowing global University exchanges although I can't see the gammons being happy with all those African students why could we not have done this ^in addition* to Erasmus? Or even encouraged the EU to expand Erasmus to be more global, because we were, like, a big mover in the direction of the EUs policy in the good old days...

I agree with the post above by AuldAlliance.