The Brexit Arms

[BrandySours]

And so it is done....! 🙌

Finally!

🥳 🎉 🇬🇧 🍾 🥂

Merry Xmas!!

Just in case there are any not disposed of

XingMing, I am genuinely intrigued about your argument re the link between corruption and legal systems. Where did you get the data from? If you are referring to data from certain Anglo-Saxon academics in the US, this has been challenged successfully in the recent years and there is no such relationship. In fact, plenty of continental legal systems are doing much better, see here:
worldjusticeproject.org/our-work/research-and-data/wjp-rule-law-index-2020. It's not my projection by the way, as is the case with many posters here.

Where did the conversationalists go?

They were saying you'd all scuttled off into silence and didn't have the courage to speak

Bellini you complain that leavers were rude to you. Surely you remember the Westminsters threads? Leavers being sneered at and discussed and described as stupid and racist etc.
The regulars on those threads thoroughly enjoyed having a go as they knew all their mates would pile in and there was safety in numbers.
Would you have stuck around if the boot had been on the other foot?

Aria, I don't have solid data or sources to back that up, other than that most of the world chooses to have really contentious/important cases tried in a very few world-class legal centres known for impartiality, and that the majority are Anglo Saxon legal jurisdictions. But I know some QCs practicing in both EU and UK, and will ask them the question.

Probably no answers tonight though.

XingMing, I am not surprised to be honest. Please go ahead and ask your friends. I have been a QC here and elsewhere in the EU and have never encountered this belief. But of course my view is anecdotal while the data about corruption cannot be challenged so easily.

Aria, I am repeating received opinion, which is equally questionable. It would be an interesting investigation though, would it not?

@XingMing

I know James Rebanks (we were at Oxford together) and he would be appalled at being namechecked on this moronic thread.

I despair for the future of this country.

@Andante57 I do not remember seeing anyone called the kind of disgusting name I was called or to be told that they needed to be disinfected. Really showed your colours. And no, I won't forget it. Not one apology from any of you charmers.

XingMing, I would agree in principle but this issue has been researched already, I am afraid, and the general conclusion is that there is no causal relationship at all between the type of the legal system (common law or other) and the rule of law. Different systems have different advantages and disadvantages and it's impossible to argue that a system is superior to another.

@Andante57 , the word used against me was the word used in anonymous letters to Polish children in the UK after the referendum . Word of choice for such people?

I have the utmost respect for James Rebanks, as a farmer and as a writer, and mentioned him on this thread as an exemplar of where UK farmers are finding ways to correct some of the poorly planned and executed farming decisions made during the last 50 years, with climate change a live issue. Unless I misread English Pastoral, and completely misunderstood his lectures in America on the live You Tube recordings, I think your 'I despair for this country' line is slightly OTT. I would be interested to hear James Rebanks speak live, and am faintly jealous to know that you met him at Oxford, although according to The Shepherd's Life, he didn't enjoy Oxford very much.

My previous comment re James Rebanks was to MoodyMarshall, obviously.

And if might I take issue with your use of the description, moronic, for this thread right now?

I don't know who you are, or where you come from politically, Moody, and I wasn't in at the birth of the Brexit Arms either. But when I was a regular, it was a well-informed group of EU sceptics who came to discuss events and developments as they played out. Because most of the posters were literate and numerate (not characteristics often associated with the BNP and its ilk) and had lived in countries other than the UK, our chat was generally reasonably informed (not the daily fail but the full range of the quality press we read). The Brexit Arms became the only place where anyone even slightly right of centre could express an idea and work it out in public without being lashed by Momentum.

And yes, there are loads of silly visual jokes. And lots of digressions about cats and butlers. Please. PLEASE, separate the nonsense from the serious talk that happened on these threads. This is really much too important a topic for us all to descend into playground insults. Few people here are much under 50, so why behave like toddlers? We are the people who will shape and make the world our children inherit. Please, less vitriol and more thought. Could anyone get behind that idea?

@XingMing

And if might I take issue with your use of the description, moronic, for this thread right now?

I don't know who you are, or where you come from politically, Moody, and I wasn't in at the birth of the Brexit Arms either. But when I was a regular, it was a well-informed group of EU sceptics who came to discuss events and developments as they played out. Because most of the posters were literate and numerate (not characteristics often associated with the BNP and its ilk) and had lived in countries other than the UK, our chat was generally reasonably informed (not the daily fail but the full range of the quality press we read). The Brexit Arms became the only place where anyone even slightly right of centre could express an idea and work it out in public without being lashed by Momentum.

And yes, there are loads of silly visual jokes. And lots of digressions about cats and butlers. Please. PLEASE, separate the nonsense from the serious talk that happened on these threads. This is really much too important a topic for us all to descend into playground insults. Few people here are much under 50, so why behave like toddlers? We are the people who will shape and make the world our children inherit. Please, less vitriol and more thought. Could anyone get behind that idea?

👏 Eloquently put XingMing

We don't have to agree on everything, or anything except that reasoned argument is met and rebutted by equally reasoned argument rather than the former "argh you're all stupid racist Farage apologists ya cunt"s. We're not.

Good article on why this situation is a pig in a poke:

https://www.politico.eu/article/5-reasons-uk-failed-brexit-talks/amp/?twitterrimpression=true

he would be appalled at being namechecked on this moronic thread

🙄
Purity spirals are indeed the devil's work

@MoodyMarshall The author will simply be trashed before any of the thoughts are countered!

Thank you, Moody. interesting read. I agree with his second point, but otherwise, I think he is trying to map the past on to the future. And I doubt the ability of anyone over 60 to predict. I'd trust my DS with that choice, as I did when casting my vote in 2016. He will live with the vote much longer than I shall.

'He is trying to map the past onto the future'.

Ironic.

I just don't buy any of the air-punching about this. It's a genuinely piss poor deal for the UK. Of course we can build on it; we'll have to, because it's threadbare and we'll crash and burn otherwise.

Sovereignty can be pooled to create effective partnerships. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing, zero sum game of 'my country right or wrong'. The UK has effectively jettisoned Scotland and NI in this process anyway, so UK sovereignty will be a much smaller concern in years to come.

I don't think the UK has jettisoned Scotland, the SNP seem desperate to get out of Westminster's orbit, but it will be far harder for them than it will for the UK to untangle itself from Brussels.

Well put on previous posts Xing.

The EU is not a benign organisation; it is in the process of trying to expand its reach, and I do not want that. I don't want to be governed by a faceless Eurocrat sitting in Berlaymont, whom I cannot expel from office if I don't like the policies. Brexit will make our politicians more accountable to us; they will have to think long term and beyond the next election cycle to put the kind of change in place that is needed to improve lives.

This gript.ie/ray-kinsella-my-verdict-on-the-brexit-deal/ is well worth a read on what sovereignty means.

XingMing, re the way things that are discussed in this thread, I had naively hoped that there would be some ideas with which even those not supporting Brexit would be able to engage. What I have seen though in all the comments from Brexiteers here is quite shocking. It's either platitudes about the UK's superiority in research, the legal system etc. that are nothing more than stereotypical views with no evidence whatsoever or swear words and memes from those that clearly lack the capacity for anything else. Frankly speaking, it's depressing.

I watch this thread (and previous incarnations) to get an understanding of what benefits we can look forward to and other than features of the deal (reduced ECJ oversight, a few more fish, being able to do our own trade deals), no one has shown me actual benefits. It's an example of how poor salesmen operate, continually selling features but ignoring the things that really matter, the benefits. Disappointing.