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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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Thread gallery
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SabrinaThwaite · 16/12/2020 22:26

Do we want a Brexit deal?

Oh Yes We Do!

Oh No We Don’t!

Boo.

It’s Behind You!

PawFives · 16/12/2020 22:51

Red & Tokyo I’m sure I read (probably on here Smile) that the Government thought Warrington was in so it doesn’t surprise me that they haven’t thought through the traffic issues! But adding more traffic to an already busy logistics hub, yeah sure it will be fine.

PawFives · 16/12/2020 22:52

Sorry meant to say in Liverpool

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 22:56

@Peregrina

What do you people in Warrington expect with a PM and Cabinet who don't realise that there is a whole world north of the M25? Sunak ought to, being an MP for Richmond in Yorkshire, but I expect he was parachuted in, and doesn't know the area.
Peregina, if its as bad as it could be, its not just people from Warrington who should be concerned. As I say, anyone who lives in any town or city north of the town should be concerned. This particular spot is a strategic weak point in our national infrustructure has been for decades. I expect a PM and a Cabinet to know which road you go on to get to Scotland - its not about local knowledge this one.
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HateIsNotGood · 16/12/2020 22:56

Not sure about the 'entire' state of play but looks like the UK have given way/compromized on Fishing. As is quite reasonable.

The "Level Playing Field" is really an easy Agree for the UK - just who Adjudicates is the 'sticker' really - so many things to consider (eg: is the agreed Standard set by the worst, best or? EU Country?).
Can the UK apply tariffs/sanctions/penalties in the cases of lower EU Standards/'ambitions'? And so on......

Seems more possible now that an Agreement of Sorts can be reached than a few days ago.

And of course no Party has yet called Extraordinary Measures due to CV19, which would be a very realistic thing to do, given the circumstances.

HannibalHayes · 16/12/2020 23:46

but looks like the UK have given way/compromized on Fishing

Why has it taken so long to realise that fishing is a red herring?

Has the election of Biden really had such a dramatic effect on our government?

So much for Sovrinty...

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 08:59

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55329573
'I've lost £20,000 in sales because of shipping delays'

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ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 17/12/2020 09:47

I just read that article too, Red.

Hoping someone on here with knowledge of the sector can explain the DFT spokesman's comment that this (container capacity) is a problem "around the globe".

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 10:12

Via BCF this morning:

Brexit is exacerbating the effect of Covid on UK goods exports, both to EU and RoW, which have been hit worse than those of EU members.

Includes sharp fall of UK exports to USA.

Even Italy's exports are doing better, despite being the hardest hit in Europe by Covid:

www.ft.com/content/78f4dc9d-33bc-4bd6-a61d-f0d69d7e997d?desktop=true&segmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a

Losing FOM means services will continue to be hit, similar reason to Covid:

UK services exports “have been hindered by travel restrictions [during the pandemic] as much of services trade is historically done in-person”

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Peregrina · 17/12/2020 10:15

Red - I have been stuck at Warrington more times than I can remember. Other difficult points - they seem forever to be doing roadworks over the Manchester Ship canal. As for the drag round Birmingham.......

For those southerners who don't often venture north., think of the M25 on a bad day.

bornatXmastobequiet · 17/12/2020 10:16

I think that Covid has contributed to container problems though not sure about the mechanisms. I seem to remember a radio report that spoke of production cuts in Asia and ships bypassing some ports, containers ending up in the wrong places.

www.locktoninternational.com/apac/marine-transport-and-cargo-disruption-due-covid-19-breakout

mrslaughan · 17/12/2020 10:17

Where's our favourite astroturfer to tell us the MP put in charge of the roll out of the vaccine couldn't be any better.....

twitter.com/rowlsmanthorpe/status/1339347825147195392?s=21

Peregrina · 17/12/2020 10:17

Bff's post. Yes, but our Government will milk the covid effects for all it's worth.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 11:11

Manfred Weber @ManfredWeber
I have proposed to @Europarl_en leadership this morning that we should only approve a #Brexit agreement if we get it until this Sunday. After that we cannot reasonably scrutinize the deal before the end of the year. The agreement is too important to rush through Parliament. 1/2

We owe it to the people and businesses in our constituencies who will be heavily affected by #Brexit, to scrutinize the deal appropriately. After Sunday we don't believe this would still be possible. 2/2

Jon Worth @jonworth
BXL journalists @nickbeake @adamparsons @nickgutteridge @tconnellyRTE - this is significant, but leaves one question unanswered: does this mean a deal is agreed politically by Sunday, or there is a ratifiable text by Sunday? If it's the latter... a deal would be needed tomorrow.

Tony Connelly @tconnellyRTE
@jonworth @adamparsons and @nickgutteridge This is interesting. It's hardening the deadline. Essentially the leader of the biggest group in the EP is saying they won't ratify any agreement that is concluded after Sunday. Whether it's the scrubbed text (ie, you'd be right to say they need a few days for that) is not clear

Allie Renison @AllieRenison
torn between whether, as potential outcomes from this might go, I see Weber as ultimately being helpful or unhelpful to business here, though I 'spose that turns on how EU and UK react (delay vs temp no deal)!

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 11:14

Helene von Bismarck @HeleneBismarck
Macron tested positive. After sitting in a room with no windows for 21 hours with 26 other heads of government last Friday.
It has been a few days since then.
But not exactly reassuring.

Will someone have to shove the Brexit Deal under his door to sign?

(Seriously though this could throw up additional practical spanners in the works).

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DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 11:15

Phil Moorhouse was stating yesterday that whatever happened, there would be no EP ratification in 2021. Not sure where he gets his info.

There's a few issues involved.

And apropos of that, I love this first comment:

“If there is an idiot in power it means those who elected him are well represented”, Mahatma Ghandi.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 11:16

He's been meeting lots of significant European leaders this week who are now all going to have to self isolate...

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quiteathome · 17/12/2020 11:17

PMK

My tiny brain hurts

quiteathome · 17/12/2020 11:19

I can't wait until January. Which will be rubbish because of Covid and double rubbish because of Brexit.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 11:22

Nick Gutteridge @nickgutteridge
1/ Brexit talks nugget: The two sides have wrapped up negotiations on public procurement. The UK will give European companies bidding for public sector contracts 'equal treatment' to British ones and vice-versa, Michel Barnier briefed MEPs. He called it 'a very good agreement'.

2/ Throughout the talks the UK had been insisting the public procurement provisions should be based on WTO rules, but it has shifted that stance late in the day. The UK sought generous terms in this area with Japan and is doing so in talks with the US, Australia, and New Zealand.

3/ EU figures estimate public sector spending makes up about 15 per cent of GDP in most developed economies, so this is a really important issue for both sides. European firms have huge financial interests in the UK - from running rail franchises to making the new blue passports.

4/ The UK side said it wouldn't comment on the ongoing negotiations. But this is a further sign of how lots of little remaining pieces of the jigsaw are slotting into place now the talks are in their endgame. If/when things move towards a deal, they could do so very quickly.

David Henig @DavidHenigUK
One of the UK's more ridiculous negotiating positions with the EU, excluding public procurement, claimed to have directly related to Dominic Cummings' dislike of open procurement processes, has been reversed. Good.

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 11:38

Iratxe Garcia Perez/ @IratxeGarper
On my initiative, today @Europarl_EN group leaders adopted this declaration stating that we will not be rushed into a consent vote of the #Brexit deal before the end of the year if we don’t have access to the text by Sunday.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
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Peregrina · 17/12/2020 11:40

Will a potential agreement annoy the ERG? If so, that's a bonus.

Totally irrelevant but I renewed my driving licence the other day and it still has the EU stars on it. Looks like the Brexiters slipped up there.

DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 11:47

@Peregrina

Will a potential agreement annoy the ERG? If so, that's a bonus.

Totally irrelevant but I renewed my driving licence the other day and it still has the EU stars on it. Looks like the Brexiters slipped up there.

Dunno about ERG, but this was a great start to the day

www.express.co.uk/videos/6216803857001/Brexit-Farage-says-Withdrawal-Agreement-is-new-EU-treaty

Brexit: Nigel Farage says the Withdrawal Agreement is a 'new EU treaty.' Farage says he 'fears' that it will be a 'Brexit in name only.'

In fact it probably won't get any better than this. Sadly.

HappyWinter · 17/12/2020 11:56

@quiteathome

I can't wait until January. Which will be rubbish because of Covid and double rubbish because of Brexit.
I'm fed up with it all too. January is always cold, dark and miserable after the bright lights of Christmas, this one is going to be rubbish. Think I'm going to keep my fairy lights up to brighten it up.

Supermarkets still look normal. Aldi is Gluhwein free this year, it says coming soon on the website, I think it's stuck in a container somewhere.

I also read the story about the toy shops not getting their Christmas stock in due to port issues. I feel so sorry for all the businesses affected by this. They've had a crappy year anyway.

HappyWinter · 17/12/2020 12:07

This is on the Guardian website, on the latest covid news page. It's Rees-Mogg who should be ashamed of himself. If children are going hungry, they need feeding. He is the only one playing politics. He is so privileged that playing politics is the only thing he has to think about. He doesn't have the empathy to put himself in anyone else's position:

Rees-Mogg accuses Unicef of 'political stunt of lowest order' after it funds food aid in UK

In the Commons Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leader of the Commons has accused Unicef of “playing politics” through its decision to spend money alleviating food poverty in the UK for the first time in its 70-year history as an aid organisation.

In response to a question about the development from Labour’s Zarah Sultana, he said:

"I think it is a real scandal that Unicef should be playing politics in this way when it is meant to be looking after people in the poorest, the most deprived, countries of the world where people are starving, where there are famines and where there are civil wars, and they make cheap political points of this kind, giving, I think, 25,000 to one council. It is a political stunt of the lowest order. Unicef should be ashamed of itself."

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