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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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TonMoulin · 16/12/2020 17:51

[quote SwedishEdith]Mind you, P&O is closing is Hull-Zeebrugge route from 1 Jan Sad

www.niferry.co.uk/po-ferries-proposes-closure-of-its-hull-zeebrugge-route/[/quote]
Bugger, that’s my route to France

TonMoulin · 16/12/2020 17:55

Just realised that Red had already posted that link Blush

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 18:00

Can someone fix JHBs computer clock ? It's not showing April 1st.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Peregrina · 16/12/2020 18:08

Did the white smoke turn black after all?

PawFives · 16/12/2020 18:21

@RedToothBrush seeing the Warrington Guardian article no wonder you mentioned worrying about traffic at Bridgefoot- it’s hardly quiet anyway!

FatCatThinCat · 16/12/2020 18:27

@TonMoulin

In the mean time, whilst no one is looking

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515

UNICEF is going to deliver food parcels to children in the U.K..

The great U.K., the Empire, the 5th. nation in the world can’t even feed its own children.

The silver lining to that shameful piece of news is that the fuckwits who moan about foreign aid going to places like India, while their governments waste money on space programmes, will now have to shut the fuck up.
ListeningQuietly · 16/12/2020 18:36

RTB
£1.6m for Folkestone does not touch the sides.
What have the South Kent Tory MPs done to piss off Whitehall that much ?

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 18:49

@ListeningQuietly

RTB £1.6m for Folkestone does not touch the sides. What have the South Kent Tory MPs done to piss off Whitehall that much ?
I think Whitehall generally are not Brexiteers.
AllTheDogsIveLovedBefore · 16/12/2020 18:54

Professor Colin Harvey from Queens has proposed a date for the Irish Referendum that even unionists know is now inevitable. The 25th anniversary of the GFA...May, 2023. This seems quite soon. I would prefer at least five years I think, to make sure yes will win.

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 18:57

@AllTheDogsIveLovedBefore

Professor Colin Harvey from Queens has proposed a date for the Irish Referendum that even unionists know is now inevitable. The 25th anniversary of the GFA...May, 2023. This seems quite soon. I would prefer at least five years I think, to make sure yes will win.
Maybe Easter 2023 ?

July 2021 ?

HannibalHayes · 16/12/2020 18:59

Shock of the year!

Nissan chooses to build new electric car in Japan, rather than the UK.

HannibalHayes · 16/12/2020 19:00

@Peregrina

Did the white smoke turn black after all?
If an agreement has been made, I suspect there are clauses about who can announce it and when...
cherin · 16/12/2020 19:15

Preferably when the markets are open

AllTheDogsIveLovedBefore · 16/12/2020 19:18

Lol DGR.😂🤣 I do think it would be nice though. But nice doesn't win referendums.

BUT we don't want the stupid mistakes of Brexit so within the decade is fine by me. And of course YES will win AS LONG as we put in the groundwork.

HappyWinter · 16/12/2020 20:00

@TonMoulin

In the mean time, whilst no one is looking

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515

UNICEF is going to deliver food parcels to children in the U.K..

The great U.K., the Empire, the 5th. nation in the world can’t even feed its own children.

That's awful. The last decade has been awful for children, child poverty is 30%. We are going backwards, not forwards.

cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-figures

HappyWinter · 16/12/2020 20:03

I don't think there is much cheerleading to be done at the moment.

veeeeh · 16/12/2020 20:40

There will be a Trade Deal make no mistake. Business will always win anyway.

Pity about ordinary mortals in this debacle

prettybird · 16/12/2020 20:47

I'm sure we will soon be getting in-coming to gaslight us C&P an explanation that Nissan were never really going to build electric cars in Sunderland and the fact that they're now going to build them in Japan for export to the EU has nothing. whatsoever. to. do. with. Brexit. Wink

veeeeh · 16/12/2020 20:52

The Brexiteers are realistically a small proprortion of ..... well tell me thanks.

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 21:38

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-may-be-delayed-with-it-system-failing-constantly-12164829
COVID-19 vaccine rollout may be delayed - with IT system 'failing constantly'

An official says the problem may explain why the government struggled to publish vaccination figures until Wednesday.

GP practices have been forced to collect data on the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine by hand, following problems with the software being used to keep track of who has been given the jab.

HANDS UP. Who is surprised?

HANDS UP. Who feels confident about the new customs it system which is yet to be tested?

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RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 21:48

[quote PawFives]@RedToothBrush seeing the Warrington Guardian article no wonder you mentioned worrying about traffic at Bridgefoot- it’s hardly quiet anyway![/quote]
If the M6 has traffic problems between J21A and J20 the whole town grinds to a halt. Its been an issue for 30 years. They built a second motorway bridge to ease the problem. It still happens. They built a toll bridge in Runcorn. It still happens. They are trying to build at least one more crossing over the Manchester Ship Canal but nothing definite yet. So its still happening.

So they decide that J20 is the ideal place to stick a carpark that might back up onto the motorway. Its pure genuis decided by someone who has never sat in a 4 hour traffic jam in Warrington.

Warrington also happens to be a centre for logistics and distribution. So guess what happens if the town and the motorway grind to a halt... Which in the middle of a pandemic reliant on logistics and distribution being fast and efficient...

The M6 being fucked daily would be 'a bit of an issue' for anyone who lives north of J20.

So I am kind of hoping that there isn't a major traffic issue as it won't affect just the area immediately next to J20.

OP posts:
veeeeh · 16/12/2020 21:48

Back to Brexit. Reckon it will be sorted. Has to be and will be.

As for Covid, well that is such a thing to put the Brexit shite on isn't it?

TokyoSushi · 16/12/2020 22:13

Fellow Warrington person here, putting a Brexit Checkpoint at J20 is insane. Yes it looks like an excellent idea - if you've never been here! The traffic is beyond horiffic and it's not unknown to take a couple of hours to get across town if anything at all happens on the Motorways.

I think we are just playing silly buggers about a Brexit deal now. Either the Government want to give us 'a wonderful Christmas present' with a shitty deal and some sort of Christmas Eve approval in Parliament drama/show, or we want to no deal and we're just having to run down the clock/persuade the EU to let us.

What a time to be alive. At least there will be plenty of things to watch unfold while we enjoy our 'small Christmases' (what a load of fcking nonsense that is too!)

Peregrina · 16/12/2020 22:16

What do you people in Warrington expect with a PM and Cabinet who don't realise that there is a whole world north of the M25? Sunak ought to, being an MP for Richmond in Yorkshire, but I expect he was parachuted in, and doesn't know the area.

borntobequiet · 16/12/2020 22:22

There seems to be a perfectly good system for recording when people get the flu vaccine. I have it at Boots and it magically appears on my medical record. Given they must use existing NHS systems to identify those who are eligible for the Corona vaccine, and that they’ll mostly be eligible for the flu vaccine as well, I don’t understand why there’s a problem - especially as they’ve been planning to roll out the vaccine for months. Oh, I do understand. It’s the concept they don’t get - planning.

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