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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 12:12

@HappyWinter

This is on the Guardian website, on the latest covid news page. It's Rees-Mogg who should be ashamed of himself. If children are going hungry, they need feeding. He is the only one playing politics. He is so privileged that playing politics is the only thing he has to think about. He doesn't have the empathy to put himself in anyone else's position:

Rees-Mogg accuses Unicef of 'political stunt of lowest order' after it funds food aid in UK

In the Commons Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leader of the Commons has accused Unicef of “playing politics” through its decision to spend money alleviating food poverty in the UK for the first time in its 70-year history as an aid organisation.

In response to a question about the development from Labour’s Zarah Sultana, he said:

"I think it is a real scandal that Unicef should be playing politics in this way when it is meant to be looking after people in the poorest, the most deprived, countries of the world where people are starving, where there are famines and where there are civil wars, and they make cheap political points of this kind, giving, I think, 25,000 to one council. It is a political stunt of the lowest order. Unicef should be ashamed of itself."

Pretty much where we are:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9060599/Row-planned-asylum-seeker-camps-no-electricity-water.html

Several 'camps' lacking mains electricity and water are to be created to house asylum seekers, according to a Conservative former immigration minister.

Caroline Nokes warned the Home Office's proposed changes coming into force on January 1 'have far reaching implications'.

Ms Nokes added that while the reforms are intended to act as a deterrent to people traffickers, they instead 'create a separate tier of asylum seeker' who will not have their claim considered.

(contd)

You know the British kept the plans from the Nazis building of death camps don't you ? Now you know why. No need to have anyones signatures on the process.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
HappyWinter · 17/12/2020 12:28

That is bad, I can't believe they are going ahead with it. Even the Conservative ex-minister is up in arms. I don't vote for them anyway, but I don't recognise the Conservative party anymore.

ListeningQuietly · 17/12/2020 12:29

PMK
Be thankful for the good things in life.
A MN and FB friend has just moved her husband into a hospice on their son's last day of term Sad

mrslaughan · 17/12/2020 12:41

I feel for your friend - I have a very dear friend who has just lost her sister (in her 20's) ...... an awful thing to go through, made worse by Covid.

TheABC · 17/12/2020 12:42

I am not sure what is more amazing; the fact that the Daily Mail is running with it or else that anyone in Government thought this would make good optics (let alone, a stab at humanity).

I keep banging on about this, but the UK's total fertility rate has dropped to 1.65. Remember all the angst about teenage pregnancies in the 90s? It does not happen anymore. The fertility rate for women under 20 is less than that for women over 40!

The upshot is we need fair and clear immigration with fast processing, otherwise the next 30 years are going to be extremely painful for pensions, healthcare and looking after our elderly. We could also save lives by offering a route to the UK that does not involve people smugglers.

If you want to see what happens to societies with a low birth-rate and no immigration, take a look at South Korea and Japan.

HappyWinter · 17/12/2020 12:59

LQ I'm so sorry for your friend and her family.

Also amazed that the story is in the Daily Mail.

I remember the teen pregnancies, a few of girls at my school left at 16 and had a baby.

DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 13:10

Also amazed that the story is in the Daily Mail.

I imagine a lot of their readers have shares in chemical companies, so it's a good heads up.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 13:26

Steve Peers, Tony Connelly and Jon Worth now muttering about the possibility of an interim treaty applied provisionally because of the EP wanting soverignty.

(head hurts).

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DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 13:32

Meanwhile, if you thought the UK didn't get the Irish situation, how bad do you think things will be when Boris goes grovelling to an India that will likely want the UK to side with it against Pakistan as the price for any deal (plus loads of lovely study, work, live and settle down visas for Indians)

You didn't think it was nearly over did you ?

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 13:35

Hugo Gye @HugoGye

Big Ben gets Brexit bongs!

House of Commons confirms that the bell will ring at 11pm on 31st December - the moment UK leaves the EU's legal regime at the end of the Brexit transition.

It is part of Parliament's new year celebrations rather than being commissioned specially.

No word on whether it will also bong at midnight for the soon to be cancelled due to new lockdown over New Years Eve.

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ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 17/12/2020 13:42

Glad I'm 400 Mike's away from Big Ben Angry. What is there to celebrate?

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 17/12/2020 13:44

*Mike's? Miles, obvs. At 400 Mikes, it might still be audible.
As you were.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 13:44

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst

Glad I'm 400 Mike's away from Big Ben Angry. What is there to celebrate?
Jam. And Sunny uplands.
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DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 13:46

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst

Glad I'm 400 Mike's away from Big Ben Angry. What is there to celebrate?
400 Mikes ?

I started with Aspel, Ashleigh, Pence, Myers and pretty much ran out

(although it was amusing googling "famous Mikes" and seeing a list of people that emphatically are not. Unless "YouTube" star means worrying more than it should Hmm)

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 13:50

The New York Times @nytimes
In its efforts to procure supplies to fight the coronavirus, Britain has awarded thousands of contracts worth billions of dollars. Much of that money has gone to politically connected companies, a New York Times analysis found.

We analyzed a large segment of the spending spree — roughly 1,200 contracts worth nearly $22 billion. About $11 billion went to firms either run by friends and associates of Conservative Party politicians, or with no experience or a history of controversy.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/17/world/europe/britain-covid-contracts.html
Waste, Negligence and Cronyism: Inside Britain’s Pandemic Spending

In the desperate scramble for protective gear and other equipment, politically connected companies reaped billions.

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DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 13:51

Returning to the Indian dimension, I wonder what the odds are that in 50 years, all our leading politicians will be descended from Indians ?

It would be a fitting revenge for colonialism. And not impossible - or even unplanned.

(Of course if India gets loads of free visas, Pakistan will want at least the same proportionally. Although I can't see our famous attention-to-detail PM quite getting why. Or indeed the history if India and Pakistan. And Bangladesh.)

FestiveFannyGallops · 17/12/2020 14:20

Ah, for whom the bell tolls. The clanging chimes of doom.

FatCatThinCat · 17/12/2020 14:25

House of Commons confirms that the bell will ring at 11pm on 31st December - the moment UK leaves the EU's legal regime at the end of the Brexit transition.

Good. Bells are traditionally rung to warn of impending disaster.

lakesidexmas · 17/12/2020 14:40

I'm seeing it as the Dr Who cloister bell personally.

DGRossetti · 17/12/2020 14:46

@lakesidexmas

I'm seeing it as the Dr Who cloister bell personally.
Maybe it's an age thing (but having rewatched it with DS, I disagree) but "Logopolis" was one of the most innovative and well constructed stories from Dr. Whos first run. Had an almost mystical atmosphere - very in keeping with the themes of Arthurian lore (one of my other hobby horses ...)

Maybe the British Parliament has been unwittingly stabilising the universe for centuries - beaming carefully calculated bullshit into the ether ? Only it's been corrupted, and the universe is imploding. As loads of TARDIS-shaped objects start appearing in Kent. (More TURDIS as the local wags noted).

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 15:10

Jim Pickard @PickardJE
narrator: there have indeed been trade deals with 58 countries

- of these 57 are “rollovers” (replacing what we already had via the EU)

- only 1 (with Japan) is entirely new

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 15:13

lisa o'carroll @lisaocarroll
Gove predicts congestion in Kent with lorry queues will only last weeks "After an initial few days and weeks of actual disruption that things will resolve themselves and do a new normal relatively early in the new year," he tells Brexit select committee

THE GOVE HAS BEEN DEPLOYED

Klaxon.

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Jason118 · 17/12/2020 15:15

So we're spending a kings ransom on various lorry parks just for a few weeks? Really?

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 15:18

Dom Walsh @DomWalsh13
New: Michael Gove tells @CommonsFREU that if there is no deal by 31st December the UK will not return to the negotiating table. "There would still be contact between the UK and the EU... but we would not be seeking to negotiate a new deal, no."

(Not a surprise but worth noting)

Gove reiterates that sticking point on LPF has been the EU's position that UK must follow EU regulations or face tariffs.

Asked if he recognises the "tariffs now/some tariffs later" irony, he says he understands this, but that lack of certainty and one-sidedness are problematic

Gove says it's more likely that we won't get a deal and puts the chances of a deal at less than 50%.

Gove: non-regression on social and environmental rules was "never really an issue" in the negotiations; bigger issue was the question of future EU rules.

Gove: Parliament will not sit on Christmas Day but it could sit on any (not every!) other day between then and the 31st if it's needed to ratify a deal.

Gove downplaying suggestions of a 'No Deal gap' between a deal being agreed and it entering into force.

"We don't intend there to be a gap... we will make sure that we have an agreement... or if there's not time for that we must accept that there won't be an agreement."

Gove: UK not yet come to a final decision on reciprocating the EU's contingency measures in No Deal (will be announced by Shapps/Eustice, not him). But UK takes "a very positive view" of reciprocal contingency measures, especially on road transport/aviation (fisheries trickier).

Data adequacy: Gove says UK is fully compliant at present; the EU's (unilateral) decision should be straightforward, but has not proven so.

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RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 15:54

lisa o'carroll @lisaocarroll
NEW: Govt announced, for one year only, it will cover holiday health care for people who require routine hospital treatment if there is no Brexit deal on EHIC health insurance. such as regular dialysis, oxygen therapy or certain types of chemotherapy.

questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2020-12-17/hcws670

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