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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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dontcallmelen · 16/12/2020 11:55

@KenDodd

That UNICEF story makes me so angry. Children (and adults) living with food insecurity and £200 fucking billion for Brexit.
This, Thank you Red for the excellent summary as always, also my sincere thanks to all contributors, such insightful & concise discussions. I once saw in Havana a plaque with something like “Cuba & Ireland two islands in sea of struggle” I have a photograph of it somewhere must dig it out.
Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 11:58

Parliament to hold extra sessions next week pending a brexit deal...

OP posts:
Lonelycrab · 16/12/2020 12:18

Fatcat I know where you’re coming from, although as has been said the fallout would be horrendous.

This whole saga is based on English exceptionalism/superiority/wehadanempiredontyouknow and the only way to lance that boil is to show how little that counts for, in a way that the public stop and realise that we are no longer the superpower people think we are. Until that happens, aren’t we just kicking the van down the road? I really don’t know.

Lonelycrab · 16/12/2020 12:20

*can. A van might be a little harder to kick anywhere.

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 13:05

www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/french-firm-wins-royal-navy-3817922.amp

A French defence contractor has announced it will deliver the "digital heart" that powers the Royal Navy's next generation Type 31 Frigates.

(contd)

Peregrina · 16/12/2020 13:20

Now why didn't Johnson put that contract out to his croneys?

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 16/12/2020 13:23

Thanks red

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 13:29

@Peregrina

Now why didn't Johnson put that contract out to his croneys?
Maybe he did.

It's only the Little Britain Brexiteers that get all patriotic about Britain. The ERG types are Selling England By The Pound.

ListeningQuietly · 16/12/2020 13:33

Chatting to people at work this morning a real, face to face meeting
consensus was that only experiencing no deal
will make people comprehend

if it is swerved then the ERG will always be able to shout project fear
Sad

HannibalHayes · 16/12/2020 14:48

A fun little read about how reporting on Brexit has affected the reporter.

OchonAgusOchonO · 16/12/2020 15:38

How has Ursula von der Leyen not told Johnson to shove his sovereignty up his backside? She has the patience of a saint to be still dealing with him. As for poor Michel Barnier, he deserves canonisation for his role in this.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/brexit-sides-move-closer-to-deal-as-johnson-calls-on-eu-to-see-sense-1.4438260

Meanwhile UK prime minister Boris Johnson told the House of Commons he has “every hope” the European Union will “see sense” and reach a trade accord. “All that it takes is for them to understand that the UK has a natural right, like every other country, to want to be able to control its own laws and its own fishing grounds,” he said. “Whatever happens in the next few days, I know that this country will prosper mightily on the terms that we agree with our European friends, whatever they may be.”

TokyoSushi · 16/12/2020 15:46

PMK, lost you there for a little while!

Whenwillow · 16/12/2020 15:53

I enjoyed reading that. Thanks, Hannibal
Also Bellini for your link.
I've seen some of the Led By Donkeys stuff, but those articles and the lies and the project fear stuff! It doesn't age well, does it?

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 16:06

Total digression, but since Hannibal was jumping out in my thread list ...

HannibalHayes · 16/12/2020 16:33

Interesting;

Alex Andreou
@sturdyAlex
BREAKING: I just received a two-word message from my Commission contact: “Fumée Blanche” (White Smoke).

A deal is done.

DGRossetti · 16/12/2020 16:41

@HannibalHayes

Interesting;

Alex Andreou
@sturdyAlex
BREAKING: I just received a two-word message from my Commission contact: “Fumée Blanche” (White Smoke).

A deal is done.

But no ratification by EU in 2020.
RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 16:41

Your friendly reminder this is the plan - not the no deal scenario:

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/18946413.checks-post-brexit-lorry-site-take-two-hours/
Checks at post-Brexit lorry site to take up to two hours

Once customs checks have been completed at the facility, drivers are expected to leave and continue their journey.

This is to make sure the number of vehicles on site is kept to a minimum to reduce the risk of congestion.

The Government estimates that drivers will need between one to two hours to go through customs clearance.

They are expecting 250 - 300 vehicles per day according to the Tory MP in the article.

Except according to this BBC article 600 lorries and trailers depart from Holyhead daily. So whats happening to all these trucks?

Apparently the facility will have space for 69 vehicles at a time.

Remember this story?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-43318258

Longer vehicle checks at the UK border post-Brexit would lead to motorway tailbacks up to 29 miles long, research commissioned by the BBC has suggested.

Imperial College London found just two extra minutes on each vehicle check could more than triple the existing queues.

and

The UK currently has a free-flowing border in Kent where lorries travelling within the EU do not complete customs declarations and passport checks are minimal. Researchers estimate it takes an average of about two minutes for each vehicle to be processed.

If additional customs checks are imposed researchers predict it will add about 10 miles to the queues at peak times for every additional minute's worth of checks.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 16:54

The Plan

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
BREAK: The UK rejects Dover funding bid to double French passport booths via @QueenOfThornsSo what is this all about? Well back in October the govt announced a £200m Port Infrastructure Fund - details below - for ports to get ready for the new trade processes for #Brexit border. Dealing with those 215m extra customs decs etc.. /2

Today we find out what everyone got - but it turns out that 54 ports asked for more than £450m - so a LOT have been bitterly disappointed. Not just Dover (on which more in a second)...they are furious the government is not willing to fully fund the very borders they mandated /3

So here is the list of what everyone got - 41 ports had winning bids totaling just over £194m - but you'll note that Dover got...wait for it...£33k. No, that is not a type. Thirty-three thousand pounds. They asked for £33m!! Why? Well to build new passport lanes. /4

Why? Because as an @NAOorguk report warned in November the Govt's 'reasonable worst case scenario' for delays at Dover for passenger traffic was "one to two hours" and "much longer" in the summer. Eeek. Happy hols everyone! /5

So here is @PortOfDover EU Exit boss Tim Reardon explaining to the Lords EU Cmme why they needed to double the number of French kiosks from five to 10 - because we'll soon be facing intrusive new checks; stamps in passport etc. Oh joy. /6

The Cabinet Office have yet to explain their thinking fully on why Dover didn't get the money - or why they didn't fine more cash when it was clear the Fund was more than twice over-subscribed. But ministers have explained how they whittle down the field. See this:/7

But none of that explains really why a government that is merrily building borders doesn't appear to want to pay for them to be built...surely in the case of Dover, when everyone is sitting fuming in queues this summer...the extra five booths might have paid off?! /8

But his is MUCH bigger than Dover. This is about booting up port infrastructure across the UK to deal with those extra 215m customs declarations, the new processes Ireland-GB, the expected increase in 'short sea' crossings to Harwich and the Humber. It's #Brexit made flesh! /9

It's fair to say there is a LOT of grumbling out there today as these awards were circulated.

Portsmouth got £17.1m - which is about £8m short of what they asked for, I am told. /10

Their MP @StephenMorganMP is fuming. He says the money falls "far short" of what they need and is less than "the money mandated by the government’s own border operating model" - I can see the Govt getting some heat on all this in coming days/weeks. /11

^This leaves ports facing a real dilemma as the July 1 2021 deadline approaches...do the go ahead and build scaled back, inadequate infrastructure...or seek more money or what? See this from @mikesellersPIP the boss of @PortsmouthPort /12

And I can tell you that dilemma is NOT confined to Portsmouth.

Humber ports like Purfleet & Killinghome that deal with 'trailer' freight from the EU on short-sea crossings also have lots to do. Holyhead must deal with huge new Irish freight issues etc. /13

Some got nothing, others took an across the board haircut 33% haricut on what they did get.

@timgmorris Chief Exec UK Major Ports Group says they're "very disappointed that the allocations of funding are so late in the day and significantly short of what many ports require."/14

His group is now calling on the Government "to work urgently with the sector to review funding levels and timings”...because tickety-tock the new border hurtles towards us (exact details still tbc...checks date...16 Dec...mops brow) /15

The point is that everyone, I think, knows it is going to be pretty choppy logistically few months - and then again, with a 'second cliff-edge' in July 1 2021 for goods coming EU-GB, so it seems odd to me Govt isn't chucking sufficient wedge at this one. /16

Because if & when the blame game begins over port congestion, I think I have a fair bet about where the finger will be pointing - at least from the point of view of a pretty sore UK ports industry today. ENDS

Full thread here
twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1339205325765947393

OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 16/12/2020 16:59

FFS £33k for Dover !!!

What about Folkestone? (the Tunnel)

If the cars cannot clear passport control, they back up onto the boats coming in
and the roads going out

The streets of Dover are shitty enough already
without queues of outbound CARS
Sad

TheABC · 16/12/2020 17:00

Sounds like a typical Tory cockup, to me. Save a penny, spend a pound.

If they were not so utterly incompetent, I would be idly speculating that they want this to be as painful as possible to open up the chance of a renegotiation at a later date, driven on by an angry populace.

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 17:11

@ListeningQuietly

FFS £33k for Dover !!!

What about Folkestone? (the Tunnel)

If the cars cannot clear passport control, they back up onto the boats coming in
and the roads going out

The streets of Dover are shitty enough already
without queues of outbound CARS
Sad

the tunnel got £1.6m (see the thread for details)
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SwedishEdith · 16/12/2020 17:13

The Dover thing is madness. It is a seamless experience when it goes well - so efficient. But any delay in the ferries causes serious tailbacks for Dover. We had to wait 8 hours last summer because of a freak summer storm.

SwedishEdith · 16/12/2020 17:17

Mind you, P&O is closing is Hull-Zeebrugge route from 1 Jan Sad

www.niferry.co.uk/po-ferries-proposes-closure-of-its-hull-zeebrugge-route/

TonMoulin · 16/12/2020 17:43

PMK

TonMoulin · 16/12/2020 17:50

In the mean time, whilst no one is looking

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-for-the-first-time-in-its-history-unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515

UNICEF is going to deliver food parcels to children in the U.K..

The great U.K., the Empire, the 5th. nation in the world can’t even feed its own children.

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