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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

OP posts:
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wherearemychickens · 10/09/2020 23:10

Incompetent, venal, corrupt, ideologically blinkered,

Sostenueto · 10/09/2020 23:12

Worst Government in Uks history more like.

Sostenueto · 10/09/2020 23:13

News labour has added a request for an amendment to bill. I will try and get details

HateIsNotGood · 10/09/2020 23:23

chickens that's a bit of an old trope - really the UK is one of the least racist countries in the world - compared to Germany, France and Italy at the very least.

I doubt most of the gammons even voted. I realize it seems easy to converge voting to Leave the EU with other 'fringe' beliefs but maybe that is the big mistake of the people who voted to remain in the EU. It was very close - those 'deciding' votes came from the 'floaters' like me.

Denigrating us to the lowest denominator hasn't worked has it. A bit late now, seeing as we're careening towards 'no deal', but maybe if you thought of the majority of the electorate who voted to leave with as much regard as you hold yourself it would have been a bit easier for everybody.

Sostenueto · 10/09/2020 23:25

I can't find some amendment by labour today but was on radio 4 at 10pmConfused

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 23:34

The vast majority of posts have been discussing the news and the idiotic Brexiter politicians,
not declaring that the voters were racists etc

This is what is important:

what a horrendous mistake BJ has made, to cap his incompetent performance, which will damage UK interests for years to come,
not whether some Leave voters felt hurt about what was said 4 years ago or whatever

  • and has since long been paid back anyway with interest by insults like "traitors" and "enemies of the people"

The referendum is over, Brexit has happened
and now BJ's incompetence and tantrumming are making the post-transition period so much more damaging for the UK than anyone could have expected

He is not just choosing the most damaging course for the economy, but is now trashing the Uk's reputation in the eyes of the world,
flushing soft power built up over decades down the toilet

wherearemychickens · 10/09/2020 23:38

Hate, just because it's an old 'trope' doesn't mean it's not true.

And I made no comment on the number of people in either category. I actually generally tend to think the best of most people, and that people voted for what they thought would be best for the country.

My ire - fury actually - is reserved for the people who lied and misrepresented and obsfucated the truth of the hard choices that going down this path would present. And that's the people sitting in government now.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 23:46

The ERG are revolting - again - and now want to amend the Bill to further roll back the WA

Nice little trade war coming up
Maybe a fishing war (although best to avoid that, as the Royal Navy was defeated by Iceland in the 4 Cod Wars, of which I only remember #4 in the 1970s)

With the govt getting stroppier at every setback and digging itself an everdeeper hole, a few analysts are saying this could escalate at worst case into unravelling the entire Western Alliance

This would indeed make Brexit prominant in the history books
Is Cummings sufficient of a Leninist to be aiming for this ?
Or more likely ther's no plan; it's just what happens when you put fanatical idiots in charge of a country

HateIsNotGood · 10/09/2020 23:47

Sostuento I've had a quick look myself for proposed Labour Amendments to the Bill - can't find any, yet, Maybe tomorrow.

DGF - what are you talking about? It just sounds like a bunch of rhetoric completely out of sync with the here and now.

Brexit hasn't happened yet - it's down to the next few weeks how Brexit happens - or doesn't if someone can pull a blinder.

Yes, your points have some 'importance' but hardly ones that are neutral and supercede all others.

Put your energies into making us floaters bleeve that your way is the most righteous, rather than call us 'foils' and 'idiots' for not seeing through what BJ and crew are doing.

wherearemychickens · 10/09/2020 23:50

Well if Brexit hadn't happened, we wouldn't be in this mess, so I'm not sure where you're going with that idea.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 23:51

Brexit happened on 1 February
Brexit = leaving the EU
The Uk is no longer an EU member

If you mean Brexit = a comprehensive trade deal with the EU:
they usually take 5-12 years to negotiate, unless one party just rolls over

Or is Brexit when the Uk develops its own agencies, finds a replacement for its biggest trading partner, tows itself out to sea ... ?

HateIsNotGood · 10/09/2020 23:52

Ooops got me Big Chocs and Rosettis confused again!
I've handed an example of my idiocy onto a plate,
maybe I'm Borrie

And I don't even know I am actually Boris Johnson.
He left the building (baby to feed, fiance to service) and so
I am now The Boris.

AMA.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 23:57

We are heading for No Deal, which was always a possible worst case (Project Fear)

What noone seriously considered before the ref was that the UK would also be heading for a trade war with its major trading partner,

all because the Tories elected a lazy fuckup as leader,
but maybe they didn't realise then that he'd rather destroy the country than let it see him accepting the reality of a no-cake deal

DrBlackbird · 10/09/2020 23:59

Some interesting grammar being used. 'My bad' instead of 'my fault'? Is this a bot? Or from a farm in Russia...

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/russias-online-comment-propaganda-army/280432/

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2020 00:02

BJ breaking an international treaty - that he praised and signed himself only a few months ago - has consequences

The usual consequences are sanctions, punitive tariffs - while being being taken to court

The EU could also cancel the emergency measures they previously agreed if there was a No Deal, to keep UK planes and Uk goods moving, to let the City retain some EU privileges

Of course BJ could just grit his teeth when this happens next year, or even repeal the bill and accept the WA he signed

However, recent events suggest he would escalate and retaliate

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2020 00:11

Peter Foster**@pmdfoster

Do I need to say anything at this point?

Dominic Raab@DominicRaabUnited Kingdom government account

Iran must never develop a nuclear weapon.

It must comply with its nuclear commitments & preserve the JCPoA
– that was the conclusion of the E3 when I met with ‪*@HeikoMaas‬ & ‪*@JY_LeDrian‬ today.
We are committed to holding Iran to account

< The UK won't be holding anyone to account for breaking an international agreement - the other side will be too busy laughing >

HateIsNotGood · 11/09/2020 00:13

BCF

Thank you for question. As you know, the electorate voted to leave the EU well before I got elected. The PM at the time resigned as he was too shocked at the result and my precessor was elected by the Tory Party.

Parliament had a full-on training session, exerting muscles, baring teeth from all sides - possibly a tactic to really piss off most of the electorate who aren't even Tories.

Then the Tories voted me as their Leader, and then, unbelieveably the UK Electorate voted in a Tory Govt led by me. I think it was because I said Get Brexit Done over and over again and lots of Labour voters wanted to get Brexit done too.

I think Labour stood a candidate in the GE but can't remember who, there's another bloke that doesn't say much either - maybe one day the'll have a strong woman to lead them.

Like you; who is looking rather attractive and ravishing I might say - we really should meet up behind the bike sheds or in my tent in Scotland - and I'm sure we'll resolve all this Brexit nonsense in no time.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2020 00:19

Peter Fosterr@pmdfoster*

It is very hard to see a way back from here for @BorisJohnson
because his legal move confirms Brexiters' view that UK cannot be 'free' with the Irish Protocol.

Any forseeable deal is now toxic to PM

https://ft.com/content/3d09bf90-afef-4216-8611-13fb4d449f6a#comments-anchor

As #Brexit trade negs head for rocks, the focus on the 'Internal Market Bill was all on the 'notwithstanding' clauses - but the bill's REAL bombs were also on the devolution settlements - See here
1/
...
To recap, leaving the EU means that the UK 'internal market' is not longer undergirded by EU rules/directives/law....
that power is transferred to Westminster...and that means friction.

Just as Brexiters hate Brussels, so Scottish/Welsn nationalists will chafe at W'minster rule/3
....
The bill itself confirmed the Scottish and Welsh worst fears on 'mutual recognition' -
they'll have to accept whatever UK Govt accepts in trade deals on food standards.
They fear a'race to the bottom' - not surprisingly they don't trust assurances on standards /5

< not surprisingly, they don't trust a govt which breaks agreements they've just signed >

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2020 00:24

Steven Swinford@Steven_Swinford (Times)

Lord Howard becomes third Tory leader to castigate govt for breaking law

He accuses it of showing ‘scant regard’ for treaty obligations
and says it will damage our reputation for probity and respect of rule of law

He questions how we can hold Russia and China to account
.....
Lord Judge, a former lord chief justice, asks if the government now considers itself to be exempt from the rule of law

'Where will this violation of constitutional principle end?'

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2020 00:28

Friday papers:

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2020 00:40

German ambassador to UK:

Andreas Michaelis@GermanAmbUK

In more than 30 years as a diplomat I have not experienced such a fast, intentional and profound deterioration of a negotiation

RandomNameForRandomThreads · 11/09/2020 01:29

I'm following this as an Irish person slightly agog at the fact that Boris and his government don't seem to be aware of the effect their statements are having on the situation in NI.

I had a conversation with my brother about this yesterday where I queried the reasoning behind the Johnson attitude and suggested that he actually wanted a no-deal Brexit.

He suggested I shouldn't discount ignorance and stupidity.

So which is it? Does Johnson not want a deal? Or is he stupid enough to think that a deal isn't important'?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 11/09/2020 02:12
mathanxiety · 11/09/2020 04:44

@DrBlackbird

'My bad' is an American phrase.
It's a casual apology used in a situation that hasn't jeopardised something important or caused serious injury.

Somehow or other, the idea has sprung up that Russia is bot central, probably because the 'product' is so easy to spot. The idea that America doesn't run its own far more sophisticated bots is one that needs to be examined.

mathanxiety · 11/09/2020 04:59

@HateIsNotGood

I have English relatives, among them an uncle and aunt who weren't born in England. One isn't white. The white individual was collared by a new neighbour in the lift soon after they moved into a building in a naice suburb of London about three years ago. This man said to my relative in a conspiratorial whisper, "You could have done much better than that, you know", referring to my relative's spouse of almost 60 years.

This individual made no secret of the fact he had voted Leave. My answer to your question: Do posters here really believe that people who voted to leave the EU are racist, anti-immigrant, pro-Empire-building xenophobes? is Yes. They probably don't want to think of themselves as racist, anti-immigrant, Imperial xenophobes, but that is what they are.

They all probably want to think they would give a good old-fashioned British thrashing to anyone complimenting them on their Aryan looks, but in reality they live in a society in which the 'Breaking Point' poster wasn't enough to cause voters to turn en masse to Remain. Somehow when it's right in front of their noses it takes on a different aspect altogether. Racism is what the Germans do, not the British. Racism is what other people do.