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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

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HateIsNotGood · 10/09/2020 21:39

Before I turn in for the night, does anyone remember the 3 years of Uncertainty the UK population lived through as Parliament and the Law wrangled their way through - debating if the democratic Vote of the Electorate was actually legal?

It was a very harnful and damaging time - one that many people haven't forgotten and have no wish to go through again.

So it's all up for Legal Interpretation, nothing is set in stone, no Laws have been broken (yet) and if they possibly are broken then as it's in the International sphere then they can be argued for years in an International Court.

Maybe the EU can argue in that Court that the UK can't Leave.
That Court can be somewhere else, not here in the UK, as the population really don't have the 'stomach' for any more.

Peregrina · 10/09/2020 21:39

Since when has someone who lives near Birmingham turned into an ex-pat, who has been away for a long time?
Ex-pat a.k.a immigrant.

Peregrina · 10/09/2020 21:42

What international treaties does the UK have - that others are now free to break ?

Closer to home, but since laws are dispensed with when inconvenient, the Act of Union with Scotland.

yolio · 10/09/2020 21:42

Sad thing is apart from discussions like here and other places where people are interested and at the same time terrified, there is not much traction in the media at all.

So people are just plodding along like myself, hoping Covid stays away from my family. Talk about the perfect time to do nefarious international rule and law breaking. People have other things to think about now.

The Covid guidance is designed to get people thinking of other things and being confused about the rules IMV. Perfect diversion.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:44

"EU should call their bluff and say OK, if you pass this law it is game over."

They've given the UK a 1 month time limit to abandon or repeal this bill,
after which they will take the UK to international court

If BJ doesn't back down, then it's probably not just No Deal next year,
but the EU cancelling emergency arrangements that were made to tide the Uk over for a while after No deal

e.g the certifications for UK civil planes, airports, crews, ships, chemicals, some industrial goods

The EU could bring in sanctions on some or all UK goods
BJ may have started a trade war, which is massively worse than No Deal

QueenOfThorns · 10/09/2020 21:46

@Peregrina

Since when has someone who lives near Birmingham turned into an ex-pat, who has been away for a long time? Ex-pat a.k.a immigrant.
I was wondering this too. If the West Midlands has somehow managed to stay in the EU, I’d better get on to Rightmove Grin
BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:47

The UK is free to mess up its own laws internally, without anyone outside giving a damn, unless it affects NI,
but breaking international law has serious consequences

States that are already pariahs don't care, a superpower needn't care,
but a formerly respectable middle-sized country has a great deal to lose

yolio · 10/09/2020 21:48

BigChoc,

I don't care how the EU do it, but really the current Government need a good lesson in how to behave regarding International Agreements.

It will be awful if things get nasty, but I blame BJ myself, well let me put it another way, the ERG have him by the short and curlies as does DC.

I really wish I knew what their end game is.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:49

The past is a foreign country
Maybe the W Midlands is too

Peregrina · 10/09/2020 21:51

and HateIs, Clavinova will be going wah, wah, wah, nasty EU., bullying us.

In ten or twenty years time, it will be over, and the history books will start to be written, and they will say, what madness was this? The UK could have willingly taken a fuller part in the EU and kept its influence, but no a weak Prime Minister who thought he would be good at the job, couldn't stand up to a faction within his party and probably wrecked the country in the process.

yolio · 10/09/2020 21:52

Boris just wants NI to throw in the towel and unite with ROI and stay in EU. Monkey off his back.

There is so much more to it than that though, as most people posting here realise.

ListeningQuietly · 10/09/2020 21:56

Maybe the EU can argue in that Court that the UK can't Leave.
The UK has always been free to leave.
But not while retaining the perks of membership.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:58

Their "end game ?"

Distraction and blame avoidance

To provoke a reaction from the EU and from Labour, to create enough confusion that at least 40% of voters - enough for reelection with a good majority - won't realise how badly they fucked up Brexit

I didn't want Brexit,
but it could have been managed intelligently so that the economic loss was minor, not noticeable to the public,
with Norway++ as either a permanent situation,
or at least a temporary stop, until the UK had developed its own trade deals & agencies to then leave the EEA

45 years of integration was always going to take 10-20 years to disengage from completely, without massive damage, if Norway++ wasn't good enough

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 22:03

The EU doesn't want the UK to stay - or rather Rejoin - at least not until it has given its head a good wobble for 20 years or more

That may be a Cummings aim that BJ hasn't realised:
to shit the bed so badly that EU members would veto any request to Rejoin ... for decades to come

TheABC · 10/09/2020 22:10

Watching this government behave so shamefully is like watching a massive toddler tantrum. There's no logic to it, so you just have to wait it out.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 22:10

Someone may bring a case against the government in the UK courts ....
Will the government defy UK courts too ?

Cameron rewrote the Ministerial Code to only require complying with UK law
BUT, there were objections and legal action

In 2018, the Court of Appeal held that ministers had the “overarching” duty to comply with the law including international law and treaty obligations.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/10/brexit-letter-are-mps-obliged-to-comply-with-international-law

FrankieStein402 · 10/09/2020 22:18

nothing is set in stone, no Laws have been broken (yet) and if they possibly are broken then as it's in the International sphere

"… by tabling the draft bill and pursuing the policy expressed therein, the UK government is in violation of the good faith obligation under the withdrawal agreement (article 5) because this bill jeopardises the attainment of the objectives of the agreement,"

Of the two parties to the brexit negotiation - which one is seeking to go back on its word? Is it not telling that the EU is the only party behaving with honesty and probity?

The clowns in government claim our future is international - so isn't the 'international sphere' important?

AuldAlliance · 10/09/2020 22:20

The EU sure as hell doesn't want a UK that's gone rogue to remain within it. Part of the EU's soft power traction is that it is comprised of democracies who respect the rule of law and can condemn those who do not.

It is not well equipped to handle rogue states (cf Hungary) and will really not want the UK on board undermining its global reputation with this kind of shite.

I doubt Barnier is lying down in a dark room, unless it is to have a good nap now that Boris has so clearly shown what everyone on the EU side has known all along but didn't like to say too openly: that he is untrustworthy and unprincipled. Barnier is no fool and has doubtless been planning for something like this for a while. The only people who will swallow the "nasty EU being nasty to poor little us" line are in the UK and they are of little importance to Barnier et al.

Peregrina · 10/09/2020 22:39

Of the two parties to the brexit negotiation - which one is seeking to go back on its word?

Some of them are on record that they only voted it through with the intention of changing it - Redwood, Gove, IDS all spring to mind.

Johnson, I am not sure about - I suspect he didn't bother to think, winning the election was all.

prettybird · 10/09/2020 22:40

BJ (et al) is acting like the playground bully dancing around the playground pretending to punch people, calling people nasty names, kicking over games, stealing the ball (the others are playing happily with) and trying to provoke a reaction so that he can complain that "The big boy hit him" Hmm

I think that the world can see how pathetic and diminished the UK has become Sad

It's sad, because even though I want Scotland to achieve her independence, I don't wish ill on England. And I am hoping and expecting that the EU and the rest of the world won't tar Scotland with England the Westminster rogue government's brush Wink

Sostenueto · 10/09/2020 22:51

It's best labour says nothing, nothing at all. It's what BJ wants to happen that labour gets vocal over it. They need to stay quiet because then the Government takes all the blame and BJ cannot transfer it on to them.

HateIsNotGood · 10/09/2020 23:01

My bad - I've confused DGF with another reg poster here. Do posters here really believe that people who voted to leave the EU are racist, anti-immigrant, pro-Empire-building xenophobes?

Believe about yourselves what ever you want to, but is it really necessary to believe the worst of others in order to substantiate your own convictions?

One of the most 'troubling' things I ever heard was on a Twin Town visit to West Germany in the 1980s. I was told that I looked more "German" than they did. Whilst they might have been trying to be complimentary, I knew exactly what they meant - Aryan - I looked Aryan - Blonde, blue-eyed, square-jawed. Not "German".

I was their guest and remained polite but if that had been said to me in the UK, then and since, my reaction would not be so polite.

wherearemychickens · 10/09/2020 23:06

I don't believe that /all/ people who voted to leave the EU are racist, anti-immigrant, pro-Empire-building xenophobes, but I do believe that all the people who are racist, anti-immigrant, pro-Empire-building xenophobes voted Brexit, yes. Apart from those who couldn't be bothered. There were probably a fair few of them too.

wherearemychickens · 10/09/2020 23:07

I also don't need to believe the worst of /all/ people to believe that we currently have the worst government I've seen in my lifetime.

prettybird · 10/09/2020 23:08

@Sostenueto

It's best labour says nothing, nothing at all. It's what BJ wants to happen that labour gets vocal over it. They need to stay quiet because then the Government takes all the blame and BJ cannot transfer it on to them.
Indeed. No need to get in the way of BJ digging his own hole. Interfering would only mean getting dirty from the mud he is shovelling messily around.
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