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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 10/09/2020 21:08

@Peregrina

Well I am glad that you think reneging on International agreements is all fine and dandy. Maybe another time this Government will rip up an agreement which affects you personally, and then I wonder how much you will enjoy the ride.
Doesn't the bill before parliament also excuse HMG from the ECHR too, if you join the dots. Something about domestic law will take precedence over treaty law.

?????

HateIsNotGood · 10/09/2020 21:08

Govt in many of its guises has ripped up many agreements and laws that have personally affected me and my loved ones - it's all a bit fluid really, law has many guises too, interpretation being a constant. I've taken it on before and won and lost and I've let it run too and taken the long way round.

No International Law has been breached - there's a bunch of discussions, interpretations, speculation, MN posting included, etc currently going on. But that's it so far....no Enactments, etc.

It's a Tactic - and yes, so far, it's a tactic I approve of.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:09

A post-Brexit deal was supposed to be "the easiest trade deal in history"
in which "we hold all the cards"

Now BJ has got us heading for a full-scale trade war with our biggest trading partner
And pissed off the Irish-American Caucus in the US Congress, making the Tory Brexiters' prize aim of a US FTA look very difficult

Then there are all the other trade deals that Brexiters were looking to make with the rest of the world

... but who wants to negotiate with someone who tears up a deal a fe months after they sign - and praise - it ?

Total Brexiter idiocy, born out desperation to hide their fuckup
So they make a far more massive fuckup

pontypridd · 10/09/2020 21:09

Why do you approve of this tactic @HateIsNotGood?

DGRossetti · 10/09/2020 21:09

Breaking international law is the kind of tactic that Iraq or North Korea might do BJ has just trashed the reputation the UK has built up over many decades

Centuries more like.

DGRossetti · 10/09/2020 21:11

.

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
HateIsNotGood · 10/09/2020 21:11

Because it's broken the impasse of EU Negs ponty.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:12

The British government has repealed its own laws many times - GEs allow this

It has not - in modern times - broken an international treaty
e.g. Mrs Thatcher on the folly of doing this

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
yolio · 10/09/2020 21:13

I was listening to Newstalk (Irish radio station) earlier. The interviewer was talking to Congressman Richard E. Neill, from Friends of Ireland in Congress.

I did think he would be a bit OTT, but the interview was just so measured and true, I had to listen back. All about those who were poles apart during the negotiations for the GFA and so on. He gave kudos to all involved from every side.

Sad times now.

www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-hard-shoulder.

Can't seem to link to the actual interview but it's the guy with the glasses.

I hope you can hear it. I know not everyone will agree with him, but wow.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:14

Broken the impasse ?

Negotiations have stopped - and now we are heading for a trade war with out biggest market

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
RedToothBrush · 10/09/2020 21:15

Interesting point of view

Ian Dunt @IanDunt
Something interesting is happening. The government is spoiling for a fight. Johnson was visibly desperate for Starmer to talk about Brexit in PMQs yesterday. No.10 clearly expect & want EU to take it to ECJ/walk away from table.

That then puts the government where they're comfortable - appealing to the culture war base, fighting off treacherous Remainers at home and dastardly Europeans abroad.

But what if neither side give them what they want. Starmer keeps well away. EU stays in talks, basically sitting it out, not pouring fuel on the fire.

Then there is no oxygen for the culture war fire, apart from that made within the Tory party by those who respect international law on one side and ERG on the other.

And without the tribalism, Tory MPs might be more likely to look at criticisms ie from Nancy Pelosi in Washington, or Michael Howard in the Lords and think: WTF are we actually doing here?

What happens to the culture war when people refuse to engage, when they won't play the game? We might be about to find out.

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 10/09/2020 21:16

Braised squirrel recipe
www.greatbritishchefs.com/recipes/braised-squirrel-recipe
You’re welcome.

DGRossetti · 10/09/2020 21:18

What happens to the culture war when people refuse to engage, when they won't play the game? We might be about to find out.

Anyone else remember Bruce Lees "fighting without fighting" ?

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:21

Anyone remember when the Tories used to claim to be the "Law and Order" Party

It's extraordinary the depths they have sunk too since the Brexiters took over

Now they have crossed the threshhold into supporting international law-breaking,
I wonder if they have any limits on which laws to break, if anything goes now

Better not try criticising China or Russia again for law-breaking ... or there will be a global horse laugh
The UK has lost its moral authority, lost its invaluable "soft power"

All because of Brexiters' ego - and BJ's desire to win a GE
He could have refused any WA and gone for No Deal .... but then he might not have won the GE

yolio · 10/09/2020 21:24

I wonder sometimes what this is all for? Exceptionalism, hubris, superiority, bullying, appeasement of ERG, what?

Mad stuff completely.

But maybe brinkmanship, who knows.

HateIsNotGood · 10/09/2020 21:24

Yeah but DGR that's if you think like an Empire Builder and bleeve that's the way the World works now.

Maybe you've been an ex-pat in the EU for so long now that your view of the UK is a bit reminiscent and historical - the UK population today hardly considers such things at all.

Maybe if you rely on SM for your info, or MN, you might think that the UK was overrun with Little Englanders with visions of Empire.
Sorry to disappoint but the vast majority of people that live in the UK are not as above - they're just like most people in most places - a bit like you.

Singasonga · 10/09/2020 21:26

I for one am enjoying watching the Brexiteer "you can't tell us what to do!" turn into "we can't tell ourselves from one year to the next what to do because we don't read our own legislation!"

Pathetic.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:26

Yep, red That German article said the EU would be the last to "turn the lights off"

BJ and his govt have massively fucked up Brexit, so they are desperately trying to provoke a fight with anybody & everybody,
to distract people from realising this

Unfortunately for him, the grownups recognise what he is trying to do

pointythings · 10/09/2020 21:27

People like Hate are all about the win. It doesn't matter what awful things you do, as long as you win. And if you completely lack a moral compass, you don't understand people who actually have one. There's no point arguing with people like that, they aren't the same species as most of us.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:31

I hadn't realised that Brits had turned into a bunch of eager law-breakers while I was away

Last time I was in the UK, most people condemned breaking international law, rather than cheering it

However, maybe that was just when countries like China, Russia, Iraq broke international law
So dictatorships and kleptocracies

Maybe that's the sort of country the UK wants to be now ...
but more likely just the most fanatical Brexiters, so not even all of them

Peregrina · 10/09/2020 21:32

Yes, DGR it will do, which is what the right wing of the Tory Party want. Let's just call it the Enabling Act so that we know exactly where we are heading.

yolio · 10/09/2020 21:34

It has to be brinkmanship here. Surely Johnson will not deliberately break an International Agreement. But who knows.

I'd say Michel Barnier is lying down in a dark room right now wondering what the heck is going on here.

EU should call their bluff and say OK, if you pass this law it is game over.

I know EU will suffer but better to rebuild with dignity than be bullied into submission, but the EU knows this anyway. They must have zero respect for Johnson's Government now. And who could blame them.

Still, the ERG are sniggering behind their cufflinks knowing that their behaviour is causing ructions. How flippin childish this all is.

I am baffled now. And knowing I am not alone is a great comfort.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2020 21:37

What international treaties does the UK have - that others are now free to break ?

There are the British military bases in Cyprus that can be taken back
Maybe Spain could break the Treaty of Urecht and claim Gibraltar

Or just stick to trade deals, so any country that signs a deal with the UK can break it a few months later, to try to negotiate a better one

ListeningQuietly · 10/09/2020 21:38

BigChoc
The Republicans USED to be the party of Free trade

in the words of Jack Sparrow
Down is up and Up is down