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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

OP posts:
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36
Phoenix21 · 09/09/2020 14:12

I don’t think Johnson will last much longer and I think his end will be humiliating for him.

But what’s next 😢. I see no light at the end of this perpetual tunnel.

Songsofexperience · 09/09/2020 14:18

Sorry if this has already been discussed but is anyone else finding the rumours about 10pm curfew really sinister?

Darker · 09/09/2020 14:18

@Emilyontmoor

St Helena just got an airport so it could attract younger tourists and not just the old people who wouldn’t use up their leave just getting there on a boat.

Though come to think of it if they locked Farage in a cage with many flagons of good British Ale, selfies in front of him could become Instagrammable moments. They could label the “attraction” Jurassic Park. .....

If he's wearing his summer shorts it could be a real winner.
mrsnorrismeow · 09/09/2020 14:20

Sorry if this has already been discussed but is anyone else finding the rumours about 10pm curfew really sinister?

Me, but I feel like I can't talk about it because people sneer if you talk about civil liberties.

My father came to this country as a political refugee from a totalitarian regime where he was imprisoned, tortured and saw his friends die. It started with basic curtailment of civil liberties "for the greater good".

So yes, that kind of thing scares me deeply.

ListeningQuietly · 09/09/2020 14:21

Sorry if this has already been discussed but is anyone else finding the rumours about 10pm curfew really sinister?
I thought it was a 10pm curfew on pubs, restaurants and bars - as is already operational in several of the locked down areas

Means you can go out for supper
but no clubbing after

Sostenueto · 09/09/2020 14:22

Was in the EDP and local rag about a possible 10 pm curfew. Got to be done 30 deaths announced today figures of positives still rising.
Didn't Matt Hancock say everyone can have a test not so long back? Then why is he blaming people that are asystematic getting tests thus blocking up the system hence why those systematic people needing tests can't get one?

DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 14:23

Interestingly ...

Under modern constitutional conventions, the Sovereign generally acts on, and in accordance with, the advice of his or her ministers.[9] However, there is some disagreement among scholars as to whether the monarch should withhold royal assent to a bill if advised to do so by her ministers.[10] Since these ministers most often enjoy the support of Parliament and obtain the passage of bills, it is improbable that they would advise the Sovereign to withhold assent. Hence, in modern practice, the issue has never arisen, and royal assent has not been withheld.[3]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_assent

it seems we may now be in uncharted and unprecedented constitutional waters. All the previous thinking has been around a Monarch withholding consent for a bill that is considered legal. There's no rulebook for a Monarch that withholds consent for an illegal bill.

Not that it will make a jot of difference. The continued existence of the House of Saxe-Coburg Windsor is worth every damn man jack of us.

Sostenueto · 09/09/2020 14:24

Auto Correct symptomatic and Asymptomatic!

DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 14:26

It's just a personal opinion, but why are people wasting time with useless tests ? You'd be better off reading tea leaves (especially if you'd had a nice cup of tea beforehand).

GeistohneGrenzen · 09/09/2020 14:27

Sabrina in 2018 a group of Russian oligarchs were bidding to buy Gruinard Island. Not sure whether this has been accomplished. Would this be an appropriate place for Farage?

Songsofexperience · 09/09/2020 14:27

I thought it was a 10pm curfew on pubs, restaurants and bars - as is already operational in several of the locked down areas

Yes, but the principle is that of a curfew, it would be across England, and I do wonder how much of it is to make us even more depressed/knackered/ compliant. Let's face it, it's the last thing the hospitality industry needs.
The whole chaos around travel this summer was another telling point.
I don't think any of it really is about 'the greater good'. The lack of logic and coherence in everything tells me it's about breaking our spirits a little more each day. Can't lead anywhere good.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/09/2020 14:29

^www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/sep/09/uk-coronavirus-live-matt-hancock-covid-testing-shortage-boris-johnson^

Legal academics immediately pointed to articles 42, 43, and 45 of the internal market bill as a blunt re-writing of the protocol.

Catherine Barnard, professor of European law at Cambridge University, said:
This is a remarkable piece of legislation and it expressly contravenes out international legal obligations to a point that the legislation itself says this is the intention,
as did Brandon Lewis yesterday.
Steve Peers, professor of law at the University of Essex said:
It is an obvious breach of international law.
You could argue that it is not a breach because it hasn’t happened yet, but they are certainly giving themselves powers to breach.

< yes, my reading of severla legal opinions is that the breach of law occurs not with this legislation, but the first time that the govt actually use it to avoid WA requiorements >

Songsofexperience · 09/09/2020 14:30

I think they are, quite literally, pirates.

SabrinaThwaite · 09/09/2020 14:32

I wouldn't let a little thing like the law stop you.

Ah, the Cummings Defence. Could also add that we're only doing illegal things in a specific and limited way.

SabrinaThwaite · 09/09/2020 14:34

@GeistohneGrenzen

Sabrina in 2018 a group of Russian oligarchs were bidding to buy Gruinard Island. Not sure whether this has been accomplished. Would this be an appropriate place for Farage?
Wiki says it was sold back to the heirs of the original owners for the original sale price of £500.
BigChocFrenzy · 09/09/2020 14:36

It depends on whether it is a general curfew applying to everyone, or just earlier closing time for pubs etc

Being ancient, I remember when pubs & restaurants had to close at 11 pm and had v limited opening times on Sunday - iirc pubs in Scotland used to be closed completely on Sundays
and there were hardly any clubs
Also children used not to be allowed in pubs, by law
(remembers boring Sundays alone in the car with a pkt of crisps if I was lucky)

All part of "back to the 1950s ?"

imo, the Tory party wants people spending, so they'll restruct social gatherings where people don't spend, but will keep the hospitality and leisure sectors open as long as they possibly can

Songsofexperience · 09/09/2020 14:39

the Tory party wants people spending

Really? Do they? Seems to me all they want is unadulterated disaster, gloom and chaos.
Plus, to spend one needs a job. Not many of those around currently.

DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 14:39

@Songsofexperience

I think they are, quite literally, pirates.
As the French and Spanish correctly called us centuries ago.

Leopards and spots ?

Peregrina · 09/09/2020 14:41

Pubs used to be closed in Wales on Sunday too. Coming from a family who don't drink, I was 19 and living in England before I realise that pubs opened on Sundays. I think they did in Wales by then. As I recall, there was a Referendum on it.

As for boring Sundays - oh dear yes.

Emilyontmoor · 09/09/2020 14:44

Songs Ironic isn’t it, that of all the infection control measures they could have taken from the successful ways that Asian countries suppressed the virus such as effective testing, track and tracing and quarantine using small labs and existing public health officers, they have gone for curfew....

If they think they are going to curb the partying of the under 21s with a 10 pm curfew they don’t realise that uni students have pre loaded with near Vodka by 10pm and are already busy licking each other’s tonsils. And the under 18s likewise, but have already passed out and had to be carried home....

Most under 21s, even affluent ones, never did sit through a long turgid dinner of pompous pretentious obnoxious racist and sexist speech’s training them to write pompous pretentious racist sexist articles for the Telegraph before they were freed up and pre loaded enough to harass and sexually assault some wenches and f**k a pig

DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 14:47

@Emilyontmoor

Songs Ironic isn’t it, that of all the infection control measures they could have taken from the successful ways that Asian countries suppressed the virus such as effective testing, track and tracing and quarantine using small labs and existing public health officers, they have gone for curfew....

If they think they are going to curb the partying of the under 21s with a 10 pm curfew they don’t realise that uni students have pre loaded with near Vodka by 10pm and are already busy licking each other’s tonsils. And the under 18s likewise, but have already passed out and had to be carried home....

Most under 21s, even affluent ones, never did sit through a long turgid dinner of pompous pretentious obnoxious racist and sexist speech’s training them to write pompous pretentious racist sexist articles for the Telegraph before they were freed up and pre loaded enough to harass and sexually assault some wenches and f**k a pig

How does a curfew work for shift workers ?
prettybird · 09/09/2020 14:49

When I went to Uni in Scotland in 1978 (I was but a young thing of 17 back then Grin), I remember people in 4th year in my hall of residence reminiscing about how last orders used to be before 10.30 (and the binge drinking that resulted) as the pubs had to shut at 10.30 Shock

It was 11 when I went drank illegally for 6 months until I turned 18 Blush, so I would study until 10/10.30 and then pop to the pub 5 minutes up the road for a quick drink Grin

Songsofexperience · 09/09/2020 14:52

As the French and Spanish correctly called us centuries ago

Ha! Family legend has it that we descend from a French privateer who had regular run ins with the English 300 years ago. I read a biography of his life which mentioned a conversation with an English officer who told him with disdain: "you privateers only fight for money, we fight for honour" To which my ancestor answered with the following bon mot: "indeed, we fight for what we don't have".

QuestionMarkNow · 09/09/2020 14:58

Song GrinGrin

Songsofexperience · 09/09/2020 15:00

emikyontmoor yes, exactly!

prettybird I used to do the exact same thing 20 years later (when pubs were closing at 11pm) Grin