Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

[RedToothBrush]

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

What time is the Bill going to be laid before Parliament? It will be very interesting to see what those Tories who have spoken out against it will do. Will they dutifully troop through the lobby to back the Government, or will they suddenly find their spines and either vote against and lose the whip, or abstain? Losing the whip would be preferable because it will chip away Johnson's majority.

It's worth starting to reflect that the referendum was almost a whole 5 years ago ... once again it's shelf life should be very much a part of ongoing discussion.

Once upon a time, the grownups would might have said that if you need to break the law to do something, it's not worth doing ? If that has now changed to "the end justifies the means" then I look forward to a different attitude to law and order in the UK.

On a much more serious note ... because it's so unprecedented I wonder what the avenues for international reaction to a clearly stated decision of a sovereign government to abandon a treaty might encompass ? Especially if a tit-for-tat repudiation of other treaties is in their interests ? (Looks again at China and Spain).

I imagine UK ambassadors are on standby to explain themselves across the world. That'll be interesting.

No country needs to be in the Single Market (or Customs Union) to negotiate some form of FT agreement with the EU. FTAs as negotiated can apply to all or some forms of trade or commerce. The SM (and CU) however is (are) a gigantic overarching FT agreement, saving a lot of bother, which is why it’s so bonkers to leave.
My understanding is not as good as others on this thread, so if I’m wrong, please contradict me.

^That was for @Phoenix21

There were also a lot of people who thought the post-WW1 years had been a bit of a turgid mess in Germany and "at least things are happening."

There were a lot of people in this country who supported what Hitler was doing. When we went to war with Germany they rewrote their personal histories smartly. Diana Mitford and Mosley couldn't manage to do that, and got banged up in Holloway. Or got sort of banged up in a cottage in the grounds, I believe, not slopping out from a tiny cell.

@Phoenix21

Excuse my ignorance but to get a FTA I thought the U.K. had to be in the single market which the Tory govt doesn’t want?

You need the goods you intend to sell into the EU to meet their standards. Simple as that.

The problem is the UK has no part in determining those standards.

That's one part of the "level playing field".

The other is that there are restrictions on how much a government can subsidise an industry. You can't have UK.plc subbing wine growers (for example) to sell 1p bottles of wine and destroy the EU wine industry.

When we went to war with Germany they rewrote their personal histories smartly.

Peregrina I thought you said said most of the upper classes who fought in the war were pro Hitler? It must have difficult for them fighting (in some cases very bravely) against an ‘enemy’ they actually supported.

It's worth starting to reflect that the referendum was almost a whole 5 years ago ... once again it's shelf life should be very much a part of ongoing discussion.

It's shelf life got extended when Johnson got his majority back last December. His mandate was "Get Brexit Done." There was no large print to say how, and more importantly no small print which said "within the law." The people who voted Tory last time effectively said, Righto, whatever. Which is exactly the sentiment HateIs expressed last night.

We should have known from last year's illegal prorogation of Parliament that they aren't to bothered about obeying the law, and they more or less got away with that last time. So why not try on an international stage? I think they have blown their credibility with China for a starters.

Let's start the sweepstakes for getting rid of the ECHR in a "specific and limited" way.

I reckon before Xmas.

.

Thank you for the explanations, I understanding. My brain is scrambled with detail trying to keep up.

At this point I don’t even know what J’son and his loons even want anymore, if indeed they ever wanted anything.

I’m still so angry, 5 years wasted. Cameron’s name barely gets mentioned for this clusterfuck.the Brexit loons have little grasp of reality.

On another note, I see on Twitter that Francois has been quietly dropped as ERG chairman. I wonder if he will site breaking the law in a specific and limited way if he ummm ended up in court at some point.

I think you are trying to put words into my mouth which I didn't say. I said quite a lot of the upper classes supported Hitler. Mosley wasn't the only one - I don't recall Mosley fighting for anyone. As for Edward VIII.... Don't kid me that they were the only ones of their class who held those views.

At the same time there were always people who did object to what Hitler was doing.

I don’t think Peregrina ever said that most of the upper classes who fought in the war were pro Hitler, because she doesn’t make wild unproven assertions like that. However we do know that some people in the upper classes - which in those days generally meant the aristocracy, landed gentry and certain very high earning professionals - were, if not pro-Hitler, not entirely disapproving of him.

But on the subject of people who on the QT did support Hitler, may a recommend - The Vinyl Detective - Victory Disc by Andrew Cartmel. It's fiction, but there can be truth in fiction. This is for the reader to judge.

(If you read it, I think the information about the fragility of shellac discs is true.)

It first came up under May about whether the government would ultimately be willing to break international law. Even then i said it was entirely plausible given how people were acting and I wouldn't put it past her government. You have to remember how May acted unlawfully repeatedly as home Secretary and had a flagrant disregard and distaste for the law. Then there was the entire a50 notification court case which was brought because May was going to do it unilaterally but had her hand forced. I've certainly always thought Johnson was capable of it, despite the wails of people that no one would possibly do that because no one would be that stupid to trash the UK's international reputation beyond repair, risk undermining all other international agreements and leave us even more shafted in the long run.

Hasn't anyone worked it out yet?

These are people who think the law is a nuisance when it is something that applies to them. They think they are above it. And without the means to hold them to account they ARE above it.

What do people think human rights all about? Its essentially about the powers of the state and individuals being used against people. Its about holding power to account by the use and enforcement of law. Red tape is rights.

Ive said this from before the ref. Taking back control was a power grab by an elite class to be above ways of being held to account. Ive said that it would all hinge on the crucial NI border.

Its really hasnt ever progressed beyond two points: accountability of those in power to the population at law to prevent abuse of power and the NI border.

Failure to address this by all concerned parties has led us to where we are: there was always a lack of imagination and an attitude that 'it couldn't possibly happen'.

The only interests Boris Johnson serves are his own. Not the public. Everyone was warned about this.

@DGRossetti

Let's start the sweepstakes for getting rid of the ECHR in a "specific and limited" way.

I reckon before Xmas.

Im surprised we aren't there already.

What do people think human rights all about?

And this is what particularly saddens me - UK lawyers were very instrumental in setting up this legislation back in the 1940s - having first hand knowledge of why it was necessary.

@borntobequiet

I don’t think Peregrina ever said that most of the upper classes who fought in the war were pro Hitler, because she doesn’t make wild unproven assertions like that. However we do know that some people in the upper classes - which in those days generally meant the aristocracy, landed gentry and certain very high earning professionals - were, if not pro-Hitler, not entirely disapproving of him.

MI5 were keeping a close eye on Eddy 8 who apparently gave the senior Nazis the impression Britain wouldn't stop them.

Could it be argued that this manoeuvre embarasses the Queen. She will be asked to assent to legislation that causes her Government to breach international law. It will bear her signature. Much was made of this aspect during the prorogation escapade so surely there's still mileage in it now.

This is what Peregrina said

‘hence most Nazis were let off by the Western allies and allowed in the military, big business, science etc

And on the QT most of the upper classes were quite happy with this, because they still believed in Nazi ideology, but it was no longer possible to admit to it.’

If they upper classes still believed in Nazi ideology then presumably they believed in it before.

On another note, I see on Twitter that Francois has been quietly dropped as ERG chairman. I wonder if he will site breaking the law in a specific and limited way if he ummm ended up in court at some point.

I wonder which Tory ex Minister is currently conspicuous by their absence from the HoC at the moment?

And will that absence be highlighted if there has to be a vote on something that might be quite important?

@WorriedMutha - Could it be argued that this manoeuvre embarasses the Queen. She will be asked to assent to legislation that causes her Government to breach international law. It will bear her signature. Much was made of this aspect during the prorogation escapade so surely there's still mileage in it now.

Given that she signed the prorogation, despite the flashing question marks over its legality, it's pretty obvious that she is unable or unwilling to provide any checks and balance over the constitutionally/legality of legislation. She is acting as a rubber stamp and after the prorogation, Johnson is presumably fully confident that she will continue to act as a rubber stamp.

@WorriedMutha

Could it be argued that this manoeuvre embarasses the Queen. She will be asked to assent to legislation that causes her Government to breach international law. It will bear her signature. Much was made of this aspect during the prorogation escapade so surely there's still mileage in it now.

The Queen is an empty vessel with fuck power and now fuck all respect. I said ages ago that if it came to Brexit, or a Monarchy the Brexiteers would dump Liz like a hot potato.

All grist to the DC "break everything to rebuild it" vision.

Personally I have little sympathy - for years we've been sold the lie that having a Monarchy was a bulwark against dictators. And even at the time I suspected "bulwark" was really code for "load of old bollocks".

@Southwestten

This is what Peregrina said

‘hence most Nazis were let off by the Western allies and allowed in the military, big business, science etc

And on the QT most of the upper classes were quite happy with this, because they still believed in Nazi ideology, but it was no longer possible to admit to it.’

If they upper classes still believed in Nazi ideology then presumably they believed in it before.

That’s not the same as saying most of the upper classes who fought in the war were pro Hitler.

Perhaps if we are doing a 'hunt the quote' I may be allowed to state what I actually said in full:

And on the QT most of the upper classes were quite happy with this, because they still believed in Nazi ideology, but it was no longer possible to admit to it.

Not all, by any means - there were those who liberated the camps and were utterly sickened by what they saw.

I hadn't highlighted the second sentence in bold, but it's something I have said more than once. Which was conveniently ignored.

It cannot be denied that even now there is still anti-semitism in this country and not just in Labour.