Westminstenders: Just another DEADline

[RedToothBrush]

Today is the last scheduled day for talks with the EU.

We have til 30th June to ask for a transition extension. We won't.

That leaves us starring down the barrel of a no deal exit, when we still could be in a covid-19 crisis and the US may be in turmoil given recent events and the coming election...

It's not a pretty picture.

It it pointless looking back and we should look forward.

I really have to disagree with "things would be just as bad under corbyn".

He was talking about locking down before Johnson like most sane people so wewould have had possibly half the deaths with COVID. That's ten of thousands of families.

I really can't see him doing a no deal brexit in the middle of a pandemic either. He was always adamantly against no deal. So surely that is better than now.

I'm not suggesting it would have been wonderful, the press would have vilified him for the lower death rate 10x as much as johnson and nothing would have been good. But it would have been lives saved.

Right I've said that and I can't be bothered talking about corbyn any more. We need to look forwards.

There is also part of me wondering if US realised that their base of Trump supporters being out with guns demanding their "freedom" a few weeks ago was perhaps a little stupid, from a political POV, as if they died... Now though, well, does it matter? It's taken the Darwin Awards over and the cynic in me wondered if populists have allowed a political spark to outrage certain groups onto the streets.

Finding yourself agreeing with Piers Morgan is one of the most unsettling things about 2020

I am not sure what you are trying to argue here. Are you implying that Remainers voted Tory because they were more afraid of Corbyn?

I'm saying that there were obviously people (not die hard Tory supporters) who seemed so hell bent on getting rid of Corbyn that they either sat on their hands or voted elsewhere knowing that vote could only damage Labour. People intelligent enough to know Johnson would be an awful leader for the country, that Brexit would be damaging (but probably not particuarly damaging to them personally). Bottom line - another 5 years of the Tories was palatable if Labour could then install the "right leader".

We are in this weird position were people are concerned about social inequalities through Brexit but not being able to stomach the candidate who was strong on tackling this issue. We are now in a weird position were people are supposedly worried about the role of the right wing press and yet of all opinion columnists to pick Owen Jones (a left wing commentator) is singled out for derision. People talk the talk but they won't walk the walk.

@cat one of the reasons I don't like OJ is that whenever I see him interviewed he is sneers and condescending...... comes across as very self important. I don't like those qualities in anyone......no matter what their political beliefs.......

Nobody seems interested in the shades of grey (not the book or movie😅) it's all very black and white.

Ghost I think you made a point up thread about things not cHanging. I am not so sure , I think most of my friends/acquaintances voted Tory ...... 1 still worships at the alter of Boris (and the moral gymnastics she goes through to justify his actions are startling) but I have seen quite a change amongst the others .
I voted for David Gauke for the first time in this election - because labour is nowhere in this election, and jo swinson completely turned me off as soon as she became leader.... but also because DG spoke about finding that middle ground.
Unfortunately not enough saw that for what it is. The next election will be interesting as DG is still very active and the Tory that was parachuted in is useless and is constantly getting roasted on the local FB pages (who have a massive Tory following)
Maybe it's wishful thinking - but I have to have hope.....

I understand the idea of common ground although disappointed that Starmer appears to be so far skirting around remotely controversial topics. He faces a far bigger struggle to get elected than Blair did in 97. Thats nothing to do with character and everything to do with the political climate.

Firstly, one of the reasons I love these threads is because it's on of the few places you can actually disagree. You can even come on here, say something unreasonable, and people will say, 'Hold on, that's unreasonable' but they will carry on talking to you.

They won't excommunicate you, in-person you, or claim you deserve death because you've transgressed a rigid set of communicative norms.

That is refreshing - and enormously psychologically liberating.

And ... it's quite weird to reflect on the rarity of that, these days.

That's why I don't embrace OJ. Sadly, I think he uses those either/or tools, the strategies of intensification, which I just cannot believe will help us in the long run.

I think we've tried using those tools - and the sad truth is that they delivered victory to the right.

So, that's my problem with OJ. One of them, anyway.

We'll see. We have quite a long time to go under this government. I suspect it's going to be a white-knuckle ride.

FrankGrimes
You are right that lots of sit on hands labour voters might have impacted on the results
but the WTF factors of Swinson meant that instead of stopping in the middle of the dial they kept on tuning right.

Starmer has to be very very careful at the moment
because anything he says has to be phrased in a way that does not undermine the NHS / care homes / teachers / parents.

Interestingly his kids have been in school the whole time so his perspective will be different from many MPs

mrslaughan I think you've hit on two things close to my heart:

• the destructiveness of either/or, black/white politics

And

• how hard it was negotiating FPTP and either/or politics in the last GE.

That latter will be an issue in any future GE, and we need to face it head on, not just wish it away.

Anyway, either/or politics is just no way to live politically. It may well be a fact in certain political moments - for example, in times of outright war - but to transform the dynamic of all politics, even the politics of duration, into that either/or dynamic is completely destructive.

It's psychologically draining. And it just means people walk away from political dngagement

You're then left with a kind of nihilism, or a cynical acceptance, and a vacuum filled with unchallenged power.

And that is dire.

Oh my @RedToothBrush, don’t let this get you down. I really don’t understand the conflation going on here, that expressing a dislike for Owen Jones means you are a middle class, Corbin hating , right wing press believing moron who with your friends, brought about this current shitshow.
Well I’m not middle class, not born to it anyway, I joined the Labour Party because of Jeremy Corbin, and I also loved Owen Jones, even when he was proudly Libdem, bought his books etc. I certainly did understand the right wing manipulation and the demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbot etc. I loved the Corbyn manifesto.
But I reluctantly came to the conclusion that he was, surely an honest and principled man, but not a great Leader. I never expressed that view at the time And I campaigned for Labour, but I voted for Keir Starmer in the leadership contest.
I didn’t vote for Angela Rayner, so much to love about her, as there was about Owen Jones, but I can never agree that trans women are women, and the sexism and ageism demonstrated by proponents of that view point means I have no respect for them. And that may seem like a rarefied and middle class position to some here, but it was arrived at through close contact with physically, emotionally and sexually abused Women and children, who need safe spaces.

Ghost - the people I know thy voted Tory - looked at Corbyn re-nationalisation plans and thought that's going to cost a fuck ton , taxes will have to go up- we can't afford that. Johnson - he won't be that bad will he? Well that's my reading of that.
One in particular is a NHS doctor who has a Dyslexic/dyspraxia son who didn't cope/progress in state school, so she is paying for him to be in private education - where he is absolutely flying. It literally came down to the fact that if taxes go up a little bit - she wouldn't be able to afford that. She has not been in education long enough to know that pre-austerity he would have had an echp and loads of support. She was hugely conflicted about it. I am presuming she voted Tory.

I think they are all absolutely regretting that now - but it's too late. (Especially the doctor who was working at a very badly effected hospital without appropriate PPE)

Finding yourself agreeing with Piers Morgan is one of the most unsettling things about 2020

Haha.

I found myself doing that last year and gave up.

Him and Portillo.

There is no point in even speculating in 'WWCD' (what would corbyn do) cos its yet another strawman argument. Its irrelevant fantasy. The only thing that matters is and the only question you should ask is what is Johnson doing?

Blame doesn't move us forward. That was a lesson I learn with being bombed. It didn't matter who said what, who did what etc etc at that point. All that ultimately mattered was it stopped and we decided on a different future. You are never going to take the pain and hardship away. There is always blame on both sides in conflict because of the very nature of it causing harm on an individual level. You should remember and use that pain in a productive way though.

Also worth pointing out that Brexit is part of the culture war. It is not a cause of it. Therefore even if we had stayed in the EU, issues arising from BLM, trans issues, covid, grenfell (see everyone has already forgotten that one), Windrush (and another one), anti semitism etc etc would have still happened. Trump didn't win because of Brexit as much as people would have you believe. Trump won because of the long term social fractures in the US which the Democrats didn't have a response to and because of rising anti establishmentism driven by long term economic issues dating back to the 2008 crash and before.

Its popular to see Brexit as the fracture point but I think the fracture does predate it and this is problematic.

@squid4

Finding yourself agreeing with Piers Morgan is one of the most unsettling things about 2020

Yes with bells on!

It is worrying when he seems to be the "voice of reason"

Finding all the different thoughts on Johnson's government, BLM, etc, really interesting, by the way.

I like it in particularly, because you all remind me that 'the present' is not unitary - there isn't one, and one only, correct interpretation, or one exalted place to view it from.

And, because of that, it is impossible to make out one clear route to take us through the difficult path of the present.

Lastly, that should be something we acknowledge when surveying the past - even the recent path. If there had been a clearly correct route, we would have taken it. Lived political reality is very messy. Hindsight applies the logic of maths (2 + 2 = 4 and is correct). Political life rarely gifts us such 'correct' routes to take.

@Zebracat - completely agree about the whole trans thing. DH and I have been talking about it a lot with the JKR opinion peice and all the HP actors coming out against her. I tried to follow stuff to try and understand where the trans lobby is coming from - and all that ended up is happening is being yelled at by white men that I couldn't possibly understand. (When I ventured the comment it is was important for women and girls to feel safe).
I used to have a Trans women (I think that's the right term)work for me- we managed to create spaces that everyone felt safe and was comfortable in. He was employed as Stephen and when I left he was Stephanie. The biggest risk to him (talking to her) - he was pre-surgery - was men. So part of me just doesn't understand why there is so much aggression around the issue directed at women. It just makes me really sad - but at the same time , I am not going to step back and allow women and girls to be diminished.

Better start stockpiling now

....and so much for involving the devolved administrations and yes, I know that that was never going to happen

Brexit: UK 'formally confirms' to EU that it won't extend transition period http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-uk-formally-confirms-to-eu-that-it-wont-extend-transition-period-12005296

Brexit Scottish and Welsh FMs push for transition period extension https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53019046

I'm saying that there were obviously people (not die hard Tory supporters) who seemed so hell bent on getting rid of Corbyn that they either sat on their hands or voted elsewhere knowing that vote could only damage Labour.

I think this applies more to one time Labour voters. I looked at the results for Denis Skinner's old constituency and a few similar ones. In each case the turnout was significantly lower, which I took to mean Labour supporters staying at home.

Prettybird
Yup.
I'm quietly starting to refill my cupboards each week from now on.

Johnson is so incompetent I think he still believes that the EU will bow down before him.

Starmer has to be very very careful at the moment because anything he says has to be phrased in a way that does not undermine x, y and z.

I saw a comment yesterday that the reason Starmer hasn't called those taking the statues down right is because he needs to go on the attack with Johnson over the rule of law because of the level of corruption going on.

If he says the statute toppers are right he undermines his own position.

I think he's right especially given what I know has been said in my immediate circle of friends about the protests last weekend.

They agree with the cause and the need but not with the protests and felt there could have been other ways to express this anger. They felt those white middle class teenagers they knew who went were remarkably selfish in attending because of the lack of social distancing and how this ultimately put those those who they supported at risk most and put NHS workers etc at risk as well as older parents. Not because of the protest itself but because of the timing of it. (I spoke to them pre statue toppling so I don't know what they think to that).

Whether this is a fair view point to have is to open to debate. My point is that this is how its an example of how its being perceived by different groups.

I personally don't really know how to feel about any of it. I have very mixed feelings about it because of how different people are viewing it.

I wouldn't not say any of my friends is racist in the slightest. They are worried for their own health (they are in their 50s), their elderly parents in their 80s and BAME friends they have who work in the health service. At the moment there is a reasonableness to this concern.

Starmer will also be aware that law and order is generally a topic that scores well with people with authoritarian leanings. To have any notion of reelection he has to be aware of this importance and how much of a priority it is to them.

Sorry - completely off topic - kind of , but I think this guy is brillant

😱😳🤦‍♀️ twitter.com/Angelo3000k/status/1271432921891647488?s=20

The only English language television I could access during the Sandy Hook massacre was CNN international. I watched Piers Morgan argue night after night for more gun control in the USA (he had a prime time slot), it wasn't a popular view but he kept going.
He may not be likable but he isn't always wrong (very few people are I guess)

As expected.
Confirmed.
Alarming.
Sure it's been discussed up-thread ... but, still ...

Cunts

If there had been a clearly correct route, we would have taken it this applies to everything that is subjective, not, for example, our COVID response. There was clear knowledge of how to act as well as examples from other countries of successful ways forward.

Anyone else hoping they have actually stockpiled PPE this time around? I have a horrible nagging feeling...