Westminstenders: Just another DEADline

[RedToothBrush]

Today is the last scheduled day for talks with the EU.

We have til 30th June to ask for a transition extension. We won't.

That leaves us starring down the barrel of a no deal exit, when we still could be in a covid-19 crisis and the US may be in turmoil given recent events and the coming election...

It's not a pretty picture.

Just popping in with a random aside. Apparently our esteemed leader has said removing or attacking statues is 'lying about our history'.

I'm not completely sure if he is therefore in favour or against it. Thinking it through logically:

1. Lying is a good thing (as it's one of his core modes).
2. Removing statues is lying.

= he is in favour of the statue removal... I think?

I used to think so cat
I really did.
But...
Too much, too much suffering. Even before covid-19. My work doesn't help I guess. I see first hand the results of this Govts policies and the lies pushed by leave.eu.
I makes staying civil hard.
Not proud of it.
But that's how I feel.
I can summon up no sympathy for those in Cornwall, Grimsby, Sunderland...they we warned. They ignored the warnings as project fear from the remainer elite it enrages me beyond words to be labelled thus
They won't even direct their anger at the motherfuckers who peddled those lies.
Remainers are an easier target I guess.

I just want to give you a hug, Squid.
And let's aim for elasticity and conversation - not fracture.
We'll just try. We may not get it right - but that's fine. It's an experiment, and it's trial and error.
We're allowed to fail - and we will pick ourselves up and try again.

With love and respect to everyone here, and in the real world, hanging in there and having those conversations.

We are, actually, doing it - right now - and good going to us.

I love you all. 💐❤️💐❤️💐

❤💐

Guardian reports that people wishing to attend Trump rallies are having to sign waivers in case they catch C-19 there ...

I'll let people ponder on that one

So time to rebuild the Temple of Mithras?

Part of our history. Romans did some things we now deplore, but aqueducts, etc.

See Change UK for further details.If remainers were so aware of right wing media manipulation they wouldn't parrot so many of their lines about Corbyn.

I’ve never parroted any right wing line on Corbyn, nor have I seen any here. The left has its own criticisms of Corbyn - half the Labour Party and Labour supporters in the country.

It was because Remainers read the room that they supported Remain. I couldn’t have been more aware of impact of Brexit on the poorest and most vulnerable in society or on NI. The fact that those groups were not aware themselves was part of the problem.

Apparently our esteemed leader has said removing or attacking statues is 'lying about our history'.

Well he'd know.

www.heraldscotland.com/news/18513563.nicola-sturgeon-welsh-first-minister-formally-tell-boris-johnson-extend-brexit-talks/

NICOLA Sturgeon has penned a joint letter with her counterpart in Wales warning Boris Johnson that his refusal to extend the Brexit transition period is “extraordinary reckless”.

In the letter, Ms Sturgeon and Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford have told the Prime Minister that ending the transition period at the end of the year “is the worst possible time”, adding that “at very best there will only be a damaging ‘bare bones’ trade deal or even worse, a disastrous no deal outcome”.

It is standard practice to sign c19 waivers now in my state anyway.
I had to sign one to restart Pilates this week.
Waivers in general are used for everything, from visiting a cat cafe to a trampoline park.

Owen Jones is a detestable man who has awful views on woman.
Nigel Farage is a detestable man with awful views on many things.
There are plenty of detestable men on the hard left and hard right, I think they are very similar in many ways.

The only people who own the Brexit mess are those that voted for it.
I don't understand why Swinson thought dissolving Parliament was a good idea, she was an idiot, but remainers are not responsible for Brexit.

I couldn’t have been more aware of impact of Brexit on the poorest and most vulnerable in society or on NI. The fact that those groups were not aware themselves was part of the problem.

I'm not justifying it, but it's understandable why these groups are treated with contempt by the organisers of Leave. If someone is stupid enough to be conned into voting against their own interests, they deserve what that get.

Yes, so perhaps the pragmatic approach for moderate voters would have been to play the ball not the man. Instead getting Corbyn out became bigger for some than the actual election.

Erm I did. But unfortunately Corbyn was so dire and divisive that x% of Labour voters in the country decided they would rather have BJ. That should tell you just how dire he was.

Corbyn failed the election for Labour on his own terms. The right wing press only had to sit back and watch him drown.

There are plenty of detestable men on the hard left and hard right, I think they are very similar in many ways.

... and women ...

But unfortunately Corbyn was so dire and divisive that x% of Labour voters in the country decided they would rather have BJ. That should tell you just how dire he was.

Well, they -and we- got BJ and that's an end to it.

The right wing press only had to sit back and watch him drown.

Except they didn't just see back did they? They did what they always do to Labour leaders. Didn't a poster earlier say people on WM understand right wing media manipulation?

I am still far from convinced that Corbyn would have been much better in government particularly in relation to Brexit.
He was in favor of leaving the EU, he said so the day after the election.
He had a different type of cake and eat it in his head but he wasn't interested in remaining.

Labour leaders are given a hard time by the press in the UK but Corbyn's own parliamentary party thought he was a disaster.

(And yes women too DG.)

Staying in the EU had nothing to do with gap years, they aren't usually taken in Europe anyway.
But ultimately the public voted for BJ because it wanted to, so now we have to live with the consequences of that.

Red If you are saying we are past peak-Farage, I might allow myself a bit of celebration. I've never known you to be falsely optimistic
Totally agree with cat here and your later comment about him screaming into social media.

Instead getting Corbyn out became bigger for some than the actual election. Back in December comfortably off remainers could economically weather even a no deal Brexit and more austerity.

I am not sure what you are trying to argue here. Are you implying that Remainers voted Tory because they were more afraid of Corbyn?

There are now two sorts of Tory voters - the pig with the blue rosette Tories, who have always voted Tory - more in the south of England, but with pockets north. Some of those will have voted Remain in the Referendum, but loyalty to the party means that they are now Born Again Brexiters of the most fundamentalist school. Then there are the Red Wall Tories. Were they all Remain voters when they put the Tories in?

Somewhere there should be a map of Leave votes vs. Tory seats. We need an up to date one, not one from the 2015 or 2017 elections.

Well, what can I say?

I went out and campaigned.

I don't think it's fair to hold those of us who had doubts about Corbyn's capacity to win the GE to blame for the defeat.

I honestly can't think of any more I could have done.

And, actually, I think that holds true for pretty much everyone on this thread.

As Red said earlier - this conversation only has value in so far as it yields tools for thinking about the present situation and how to move forwards.

So a little love and respect is needed.

No point at all in conjuring chimeras. No point in 'un-personing' and inventing 'others' to scapegoat and hate.

Let's bring on the complexity, the nuance - it's in short supply.

And I'll say now, my big take away from the GE was that populism always benefits the right.

Always.

So I'm not signing up for 'Left populism' any time soon. I, personally, will take some convincing that it's not a busted flush.

My other take-away: either/or politics is similarly disastrous for the progressives.

If I can do one thing, it will be to open space for something other than either/or politics.

I think there is something in the very nature of either/or politics that is authoritarian.

I've read my Mouffe and Laclau. They are optimistic for either/or politics. They see it as a neutral and necessary moment in all political projects. They therefore see it as something recuperable by progressives and the Left.

With respect to their obvious intellectual gifts, I now disagree.

I think either/or politics is always skewered towards authoritarians and cannot be used by progressives. It's poisonous for us.

Anyone else feeling this is quite an interesting start to a long backlash coming for Boris from his own side? www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/12/boris-johnson-says-removing-statues-is-to-lie-about-our-history-george-floyd

Surely, if he is admitting we lie about our history enough to keep statues (pinnacle of achievement for many having one erected in their "honour" even to this day), surely he is proposing a curriculum change to address this glaring omission from our national awareness? Not sure I've phrased that very well, but it does admit that these people should not be celebrated at least. Not sure many Brexiteers will agree with that; sounds a bit liberal to me

Anyway, that was me trying to 'do' thinking about what I can learn from the GE.

🤷‍♀️

I've spent a lot of time thinking about it.

And I know others will have drawn very different conclusions.

But we have to go forwards. The past is gone, the present is not a place I can call 'home', so I have to gather what I can and keep travelling.

Except they didn't just see back did they?

No they didn’t, and why would they. But the fact is they could have just sat back because Corbyn destroyed himself and the Labour Party all on his own. All the right wing press had to do was pour fuel on the existing fire.

IMO you only have to look at Piers Morgan so see that people who have bad opinions can also have good ones. No one is 100% villain (hard not to make an exception for Mogg, Cummings and Tentacle Slap here ) so hate towards a particular person or group without any leeway that they may now and then have a point is quite childish and wavers towards lazy thinking.

Corbyn failed the election for Labour on his own terms.

This is the funny thing though - Corbyn did well in 2017. He didn't win, but he did a sight better than anyone expected. The school cuts also gained a lot of traction and won Labour votes. But this didn't seem to work in 2019. Presumably a liar like Johnson was preferable to the earnest Mrs May. Was it just "Get Brexit Done"? Most people neither knew nor cared about the EU before the Referendum, so have they gone back to not caring?

Demographics is a key factor in where we find ourselves.

For the first time in history there are more old people than young in Europe.

For at least a couple of decades, policies have been skewed to support the old as they are the most likely to vote.

Triple lock pensions versus tuition fees.

BLM has lit a spark under a young locked down generation and focused their resentment.

THe UK government has every incentive possible to keep COVID and BLM and trans issues in the news
as that will make people not realise what damage Brexit will do until it is too late