Immigration: Sh*t just got real...

[Miljea]

Wonder how Timmy Wetherspoons is frothing today?

Points based??

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421BBC

"Low-skilled workers would not get visas under post-Brexit immigration plans unveiled by the government.

It is urging employers to "move away" from relying on "cheap labour" from Europe and invest in retaining staff and developing automation technology."

And take on the 6m 'economically inactive' 16-64 year olds in Britain.

Good luck with that.

Gosh, that devil is in the detail, innit?

And, separate but important point, who the chuff is clamouring to get into the UK, now, other than southern Asians uniting families? (Which I completely understand).

Clamping down on immigration is all based on a lie.

The lie is that the UK's native born population can support itself economically, socially and industrially.

It never has, it never will.

But the lie makes native born people feel more important than they are
and kicks the tough decisions into the long grass for another decade

Those young people I have met in Thailand do a variety of jobs that require a range of qualifications, but often none other than speaking English, teaching English (not necessarily with any qualifications), real estate, hospitality (working / managing bars, restaurants, spas, hotels, reception, marketing etc.,), entrepreneurial (a whole range from bars and restaurants to diving and other beach activities ), in Thai businesses outside hospitality catering to westerners, eg healthcare, dementia care, rehabs. Basically any part of the economy where speaking English is an advantage. Often they go out there, meet Thai partners and use that cultural insight to get work. I have family members who have done that who came from the poorest parts of one of the poorest cities in the country, members of the demographic of white boys from big estates who do worse in school than the rest of the diverse school population. Obviously they lived at home originally so that they can got work eg in a bar to save up the £600 they need to get out there, stay in hostels and party a bit before finding work. And they had the insight from other people they knew to make the leap. They are both now settled with families there and I have friends with similar experience from families in Nottingham and Newcastle. Visa wise you can live in Thailand as long as you want (plenty have for decades) as long as you cross the border every six months to renew it. You cannot hold property in your own name but that is not an issue if your partner is Thai......

I am not saying that is for everyone but there are other options around the world even for those not qualified especially where there are expat communities / tourists.

The point is that there if there is a ladder you can step off it and go elsewhere....

I should add Thailand has its own “problem” with immigrants. Remember the boys trapped in the cave? They were part of a stateless group originating in the golden triangle, the border with Burma and Laos. The Thais regularly deport the Burmese and Laotian migrant labourers their economy could not do without......

Couldn’t agree more that the solutions we need lie in education and training, investment in infrastructure and encouraging new industries such as science and tech to left behind areas, and improvements in health outcomes (much worse in the north and including tackling difficult issues like social care head on instead of leaving our old people uncared for and clogging up the NHS)

It’s not just that this Immigration policy is a populist dog whistle That does nothing to address the issues facing the country. Cummings is already signalling that the current concentration of science and tech on the infrastructure and tech in infrastructure deserts around Oxford and Cambridge will continue because that is where his weirdo Californian friends think they want to go. When given the right infrastructure, and the scientific excellence of northern universities they could surely be persuaded by the quality of life of living at the edge of the Pennines?

To dismiss money making sectors like higher education as 'mc concerns' is at best short sighted, at worse downright irresponsible.

When given the right infrastructure, and the scientific excellence of northern universities they could surely be persuaded by the quality of life of living at the edge of the Pennines?

You would think so. Cummings ought to know that there is a whole world further north than Oxford and Cambridge.

However, for a lot of people even Manchester is 'south' and a long long way from them.

Totally agree Peregrina . It is just for illustration. In Manchester Leeds and Sheffield you have a string of university towns that could be linked into by a network of transport infrastructure from towns like Barnsley, Rotherham, Doncaster, Bury, Wakefield.

For the red wall towns further north the same could happen focusing on Newcastle.

The irony is that for County Durham the EU had already invested in encouraging science and tech there

Out of interest, when people get excitable about immigration why is it always about immigration from "dark skinned" countries?

I've never ONCE seen anybody complaining about Australian, New Zealand, South African etc living in the UK.

Any particular reason for that?

Yes, racism.

where are the UK workers who are going to fill the gaps?

Believe me, there are plenty of potential workers. I used to work in an inner city, covering several council estates. For many, living on benefits is a lifestyle choice.

As a country, we want all those that can work, to work. The benefits system should be there to help those who really need it, not those who choose to be layabouts.

So less Poles and more Malaysians
but basically the same number over all

In my line, frontline HCP, the departing EU staff have been replaced with 3rd world trained staff, as, unlike 5 years ago, the ads no longer attract Australians, NZ, Canadians or SA anymore.

So 'blind eyes' are being turned to some qualifications and English ability.

The well off, white retirees of this Tory, southern Cathedral city Do Not Like It.

But you can't say the numbers aren't the same....

Squirrels "Believe me, there are plenty of potential workers. I used to work in an inner city, covering several council estates. For many, living on benefits is a lifestyle choice."

• you overlook the fact that many of these will be basically unemployable!

In my line, frontline HCP, the departing EU staff have been replaced with 3rd world trained staff, as, unlike 5 years ago, the ads no longer attract Australians, NZ, Canadians or SA anymore.

And here we have to question the morality of taking staff away from those countries whose health services are less developed than ours, and can in the main, little afford to lose the staff.

I believe the Philippines might be something of an exception here and good news for those who don't like Muslims - most of the population are Catholic.

For a very long time I've had a theory that the UK as a former
Imperial Power
and thus supplier country
shipped many of its brightest and best out to the rest of the world a long time ago.
Those parts of society that still cross fertilise with the rest of the world stay dynamic
The others are left behind in every sense of the word
and will stay so

@Miljea

you overlook the fact that many of these will be basically unemployable! Why?

I used to visit a family with four children. Their bin was too small to take all their rubbish, so they were just piling it up next to the bin. I got them another bin, so all they had to do was pick up their own rubbish and put it in the bin. Two perfectly capable unemployed adults, sat there and told me they wouldn’t do it and expected me to find some sort of council worker to do it for them.

This is what our nanny state has created! This was not an isolated incident either.

Two perfectly capable unemployed adults, sat there and told me they wouldn’t do it and expected me to find some sort of council worker to do it for them.

So you would like to see people like this looking after your elderly or disabled relatives, would you?

I see your point. However, this raises many questions. Do we just continue as a society in promoting being idle as a lifestyle choice? Why should our wonderful welfare system be spent on the idle, rather than the sick, elderly, vulnerable, etc. The situation we have is wrong on many levels.

Since we now have a bone idle Prime Minister, we lack positive role models. Lying and cheating seems to pay, so I can't see any incentive for people born without his privileges to strive to better themselves.

I see our present government as much less enabling than a Corbyn Labour government. Corbyn had free handouts for every man and his dog in his manifesto, with no clue where the money was coming from; other than to borrow it.

Before you accuse me of being right wing, over the years I am very much a floating voter.

I see a whole section of our society who could step up and work, IF THEY HAD TO. I’ve worked with many different nationalities and you do find that those who have grown up in a country like Poland, have a very different work ethic.

Well Corbyn didn't win, so whatever a Government led by him might or might not have done is a total irrelevance.

I personally get angry seeing the way the Tories are treating the sick and disabled, the long waits for hospital appointments, nothing to do with 'immigrants' taking them all and everything to do with Tory austerity. That to me is a much better thing to fight against than a relative small number of people who are idle and don't know how to work.

And no one did accuse you of being right wing. I do wish though that people could remember the old saying 'there but for the grace of God, go I'.

Why should our wonderful welfare system be spent on the idle, rather than the sick, elderly, vulnerable, etc. The situation we have is wrong on many levels.
Completely agree. But, I would much rather the welfare system allowed the idle to take the piss than missed the sick, elderly, vulnerable. This seems to be the choice. Also, I would argue for the most part the idle are also vulnerable.

I agree with KenDodd here.

Matt Hancock tweeted:

"NEWS: figures just out show record numbers of nurses in the NHS - up 8,000 on last year"

With any of the current Government I would want to look behind the figures before I believed what they said. Like the 50,000 'new' nurses which somehow includes 11,000 old nurses, or the 40 'new' hospitals, which are six hospitals given a lick of paint.

I would much rather the welfare system allowed the idle to take the piss than missed the sick, elderly, vulnerable. This seems to be the choice said @KenDodd

I agree that I want to live in a civilised country, where we look after those that need it. I disagree, that in order to provide for those who need it, we have to facilitate idleness. There has to be a better way and I believe it's through education.

We spend a pitiful amount on our teachers and our schools. You only have to look at what makes a country successful and education comes out top every single time. We teach our young people to want to work and to be aspirational. We don't want them to believe unemployment and living on benefits is the right lifestyle choice.