Immigration: Sh*t just got real...

[Miljea]

Wonder how Timmy Wetherspoons is frothing today?

Points based??

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421BBC

"Low-skilled workers would not get visas under post-Brexit immigration plans unveiled by the government.

It is urging employers to "move away" from relying on "cheap labour" from Europe and invest in retaining staff and developing automation technology."

And take on the 6m 'economically inactive' 16-64 year olds in Britain.

Good luck with that.

Gosh, that devil is in the detail, innit?

And, separate but important point, who the chuff is clamouring to get into the UK, now, other than southern Asians uniting families? (Which I completely understand).

Double
The thing is that the hostile environment made it darned near impossible to bring in non EU people
so employers brought in EU people admittedly under the posted worker scheme, but that is down to the UK employers being tight, not the workers

Now the EU route is being choked off
but the non EU route stays choked

so either the UK will just have less people coming here to work
OR
the UK will have to ease up the rules for everybody including EU

I also don't think in terms of the brain drain that people realise how disillusioned young professionals starting out their careers here are at the moment. There is a Brexit and a right wing government the majority did not want or vote for. They are experiencing job insecurity as a result (science, academia, the service sector, the big 4 in particular are laying off trainees with impunity) and greater discrimination against minorities. Racism and Misogyny are becoming acceptable currency from the PM and Cummings down. Whilst employers are most definitely embracing diversity and its benefits that is not necessarily walked by senior managers (I work with a mentoring charity and have never before had to raise with high profile employers in 20 years of working with them to increase diversity that our graduates are experiencing racism and misogyny in their workplaces) They are already on the receiving end of economic inequality, not able to aspire to the same lifestyle as the generations before them, and they know there is a social care timebomb that might land at their feet because a right wing government can't upset its older voters . We have already seen the disappearance of doctors and nurses, it will definitely be an increasing trend.

I have two children at university and lots of friends with kids at and finishing Uni.

Around 2/3 of them are looking to move out of the UK when they can
many of the older ones have already gone

for my friends who cannot afford regular flights its a real wrench
but we cannot blame them looking after their own futures

Around 2/3 of them are looking to move out of the UK when they can many of the older ones have already gone

Indeed, DD, DS, DiL, Nephew, all graduates of between 12 and 25 years experience have gone abroad. Now they may have gone anyway, but so far the supposedly wonderful opportunities being offered by this country haven't persuaded them to stay.

BiL has come back from abroad, to take up retirement. Still, bouts of ill health, including cancer aside, no doubt Priti Patel will be pressing him into service. Which means his commitment to voluntary work will get scrapped.

I think that you all just don't get it at all. Your complains about students and others wanting to leave or have left the country. To the majority of leave voters, this will appear as a very middle class complaint that they will have very little sympathy for. The UK has been well known as a country where our young adults weren't afraid to go out into the world to 'seek their fortunes'. Both my grandfathers did. One to the Far East and the other to ranch in the Mid West returning to buy a farm in Scotland and marry.
Listening - I don't think the non EU route will 'stay choked' the situation is a completely different one now. Just because you don't agree with the government of the day really is a very poor reason to think of moving country don't you think. I certainly don't agree with the government of the day in my country.
Peregrina - we left the EU 3 weeks ago, how on earth are you suggesting we magic up all these ' supposedly wonderful opportunities being offered by this country' !!

I think that you all just don't get it at all

I do, voters with fuck all ambition and driven jealousy, want to screw over anyone better off than them, especially the M/Cs who pay the most tax... that supports their services and tops up their wages.

Sounds a recipe for long term success doesn't it?

Double
I don't think the non EU route will 'stay choked' the situation is a completely different one now.
I think you need to read up a bit more about how visa rules and international treaties work .....
If the UK eases regs for some countries it will by default ease them for the EU
if it wants to keep them tight for the EU it will have to keep them tight for everybody.

Yes, Brits have moved overseas and taken the jobs of locals all over the world for centuries
some of those countries are rather looking forward to getting their own back

doubletrouble I think it is you who just does not get it. I come from the north, I get it feels left behind. It has been left behind, entirely the result of EU policy, not immigration, not the EU. My friends and family are in the grip of a populist cult as a result of this, but it is an old people's cult.

The young people I know who are slipping away , nurses, electricians, carpenters, as well as professionals are making lives for themselves elsewhere, they are taking residency and citizenship, they are settling in France or Spain or in Thai resorts or moving on to Australia and New Zealand. They are not out adventuring for England. They are turning their back on it.

So who is going to be left to be conscripted into the fruit fields and wiping bums? .

we left the EU 3 weeks ago, how on earth are you suggesting we magic up all these ' supposedly wonderful opportunities being offered by this country' !!

You tell us, you have had the better part of four years to be planning for it, and we hold all the cards, remember!

You only have to look at the state of the NHS - this is absolutely nothing to do with the EU and everything with Tory dogma - so it's no wonder that the younger doctors, nurses and midwives are upping sticks. Not just for financial gain, but to do the job they trained for properly with time and resources to do it.

Emilyontmoor the problem with this country is that it wants its young to do a lot more for a lot less than those before them and not have the temerity to ask why for fear of being labelled a snowflake.

Oops I meant to say entirely the result of government policy....

I'm not middle class or complaining. I've done quite well out of Brexit so far 😏 It's just a fact (sorry)

some of those countries are rather looking forward to getting their own back grin
Listening how are these countries going to get their own back?

Barbados
Xi is quite open about the fact that 100 years after Western powers tried to crush China, its Belt and Road project will bring them back to dominance.

Modi is turning India into a Hindu theocracy that will only trade with the former Colonial power on their own terms

I think India has already showed its hand here - I have mentioned how Johnson and May rushed off to India babbling about trade deals, and were told Trade deal = more visas for our citizens. J & M then came back with considerably less fanfare.

Emily I get you completely. I agree with what you are saying about disillusionment.

What you don’t get is that you are talking about the better off groups. As you have said before being Northern alone does not put you among the poorest groups.

The reduction in pay and security for the jobs you mention are the normality that lower class groups have always had to deal with.

What we’re dealing with is the classic ‘divide and conquer’ approach to making us all race to the bottom of the ladder.

maybe now they will have to stop being so ageist and older folk with poor pensions will be able to find themselves appropriate work to top things up

Emilyontmoor the problem with this country is that it wants its young to do a lot more for a lot less than those before them and not have the temerity to ask why for fear of being labelled a snowflake

With the additional clarification that ‘young’ means anyone under the age of 50 now - the definition of young went up with my generation, as we watched house prices double and triple’, until we hit 40 and no one in their right mind could call us young any more. So they just pretended we didn’t exist any more.

RB68 older folk with poor pensions I am sure the WASPI women will be very pleased to hear that having a poor pension because they were shafted by the government they will now get to do back breaking labour in the fields and care homes, especially as many of them have significant health issues or care responsibilities which was why they had put the financial plans in place to retire at 60 in the first place.

Throwing good That was not my quote. The young people I have met out in Thailand who have settled there or plan to move on to Australia /New Zealand are no longer middle class backpackers. They are much more likely to be working class young people from the Midlands and North. Why live in a grey and miserable country working in a call centre or as a wage slave when you can move somewhere sunny and find work.

Take your point on the over 40s, the crunch point on house prices came when the last of the baby boomers were in their 40s. I do think there is a distinctly more global outlook amongst the under 40s, from all classes, more likely to have travelled before, less ties to this country.

And my underlying point is about the economy. Brexit is already damaging the parts of the economy that make money for the country. For sure the U.K. has been too reliant on the service sector concentrated in the South East but the fact remains that that is where the money that can fund infrastructure and better economic planning is generated. You can’t damage the money making part of the economy and drive away the young people with the skills to drive it, and deliver a fairer society.

And I very much doubt that is the plan anyway. This is not about creating an economy that works for everyone, all the signs are that it is about managed decline, managed to make the few richer.

Emily what sort of work do the young British people do in Thailand?

And define “working class” then. I am working class from the Midlands and North and there ain’t no way I could have afforded to go backpacking in foreign lands as a teenager. Nor could the kids I meet from there from similar backgrounds now, many of them, like me, won’t be able to afford going abroad until they’re in their thirties and only then if they have taken on no family commitments.

Perhaps we need to ditch the simple ‘lower, middle, upper’ class and accept a huge social ladder instead, appropriate to a nation of 65 million people, and recognise that there are many more rungs on it. We could then recognise that those from the lowest face huge barriers in climbing, and even the most energetic are only going to be able to climb a couple of rungs in each generation.

And that the whole ladder is sliding down, so you need to climb faster and higher to get the same outcome.

Genuinely, how will this help the poorest groups? Reducing the size of the labour market is only one measure and no one can seriously be suggesting this alone will improve salaries at the low end of the scale. People have to be able to work near where the work is, unless they are rich and commute. These jobs wont necessarily be in the right places to provide jobs for the precariat. Unless they will be expected to be shipped to different areas of the country to take up jobs.

What about investing in measures to improve the health outcomes of the poorest people?

What about providing a decent education for their children so they don't have to stress that their kids' lives will be as shit as theirs?

What about providing life long learning opportunities so people have the chance in adulthood to return to education (especially if they realise in hindsight that they missed out on a lot due to a less than ideal childhood)

These things would also have to be in place to make one jot of a different to people's lives, not just making ideologically driven policy decisions like this (see also: austerity).