Immigration: Sh*t just got real...

[Miljea]

Wonder how Timmy Wetherspoons is frothing today?

Points based??

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421BBC

"Low-skilled workers would not get visas under post-Brexit immigration plans unveiled by the government.

It is urging employers to "move away" from relying on "cheap labour" from Europe and invest in retaining staff and developing automation technology."

And take on the 6m 'economically inactive' 16-64 year olds in Britain.

Good luck with that.

Gosh, that devil is in the detail, innit?

And, separate but important point, who the chuff is clamouring to get into the UK, now, other than southern Asians uniting families? (Which I completely understand).

This kind of thing is a big deterrent, though:
www.theguardian.com/education/2020/feb/25/academics-refused-permanent-uk-visas-because-of-field-trips-abroad

"The amount of money we’ve spent on visas and the NHS surcharge while we have been here, we could have bought a house instead."

The hostile environment mindset will need to be altered very quickly.

A three year fast track route to indefinite leave to remain seems pretty welcoming to me.

Not at those prices, and you will have to pay again after three years to get ILR.

Meanwhile EU nationals can work in another EU country with zero immigration hassle, and non-EU nationals can move to the EU with much cheaper and easier (more welcoming!) immigration processes.

Agree that France is not the big destination. Depending on the field, you can work in the Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia completely in English. These countries are also more family friendly if you have dependents (e.g., cheap/free childcare).

Of course universities and institutes are talking very optimistically, they need to paint a picture of 'everything will be great'.

But for example, now that there is more certainty about Brexit, my university is pushing through some pretty serious cost-cutting measures and not approving new staff positions.

AuldAlliance
Your link shows an extra 160 EU academics moved to a job abroad - during the same time period the number of EU academics working at UK universities increased from 35,920 to 37,255 - this number has now increased to 38,080.

But for example, now that there is more certainty about Brexit, my university is pushing through some pretty serious cost-cutting measures and not approving new staff positions.

My University is doing the same, but it's because there's a demographic blip that has led to a decrease in UK student numbers and a corresponding loss of income. I've not seen any evidence that Brexit has had much of an impact so far.

This kind of thing is a big deterrent, though

Looks like they're dealing with that particular deterrent in the new visa scheme;

"There will be an exemption from absence rules for researchers, and their dependants, where they are required overseas for work-related purposes, ensuring they are not penalised when they apply for settlement."

I wonder if anyone will bother to tell the Home Office staff what their new rules say, or will they still go on merrily making them up?

Anything they say needs to be written into law, with severe penalties for breaking the law. No, I can't see that happening with the current Government, and the current Home Secretary who seems to think laws are an inconvenience to be ignored when it suits.

Perhaps it varies by institution? We have a very large cohort of EU students, particularly at MA level.

Think about what EU students will have to do if the same immigration rules apply to them. They will have to go through a very exacting visa application process, including getting certified translations of all documents and possibly attending an interview. They will have to show that they have in the bank at the time of application not only the full tuition fees for their course (at my uni international fees are currently £20,000/year for undergrad and £26,000 for MA), but on top of that about £10,000 for living expenses. So yes, at least 30K in the bank at time of application.

Then when they get to uni, they need to abide by immigration rules about how much you can work, and risk being reported to the Home Office if they don't attend enough classes.

Now obviously, plenty of international students come to the UK every year, despite all these hurdles. But EU nationals increasingly have other options. They can do their studies (in English) in the Netherlands or Germany and pay very little in tuition and no immigration hassle.

If the UK government can reach a deal with the EU that allows EU students to continue under current rules, then the impact should not be too bad. But the prospects for this are not great at the moment.

This thread reminds me of a bus trip I had a few weeks ago.
A lady was refused (along with a few others) passage on the bus I was on as it was peak time and the bus was filled to capacity.
She was calling the bus driver all the names under the sun accusing him of racism. The bus driver, after politely trying to explain why she couldn't embark finally said "It's not a question of race, it's a question of space love!"

Yes we are a very popular destination in the EU as our economy is the 2nd strongest. Not the sole reason that someone may want to live and work here but that's one of the main reasons.
The first and 3rd biggest economys in the EU is Germany and France. France is over twice the size of the UK. Germany is a 3rd bigger than us.
Surely sooner or later with everyone cramming in, it was going to come down to this? I don't think we should be turning people away, but we are a very small island and cannot physically accommodate everyone who may want to settle here. Its a question of space.

Most other non EU countries have a system like the one the government want to implement.

I wonder if anyone will bother to tell the Home Office staff what their new rules say, or will they still go on merrily making them up?

I don't think the Home Office were making up the rules in the cases highlighted by the Guardian - just, 'them's the rules' at the time - even if they seem unfair/unnecessary.

Case of an American academic from 2017;

Sophie Barrett-Brown, senior partner and head of UK practice at Laura Devine Solicitors, which specialises in immigration law, said it was a “really unfortunate policy” and “our view [is] that there should be greater scope for exercising discretion”.

Although conducting research abroad “enriches [academics’] contribution to the UK” and it is “a typical part of how they need to operate”, universities must be “mindful” of this policy when “making decisions around how their academic staff are going to operate”, Ms Barrett-Brown added.

A Home Office spokesman said: “There are no continuous residency rules for those applying for limited leave to remain as a Tier 2 migrant –the typical route used by skilled foreign workers such as academics who come to the UK to work and then return home.

“However, Dr Michelson applied for indefinite leave to remain as a Tier 2 migrant and the rules clearly state that applicants are required to live continuously in the UK for five years. Her application was initially refused due to this reason, but leave was granted following a fresh application that contained further representations."

I assume Dr Michelson is a white American - the Guardian appear to be setting up another xenophobic narrative in their article - sigh.

www.timeshighereducation.com/news/right-remain-uk-jeopardised-researching-abroad

I admit, when you read the details about various refusals in the press, it is often the case that rules have not been followed (not always, of course).

The problem is that the rules are rather draconian (by EU standards), are not always clearly presented, and are interpreted ruthlessly.

I've been through immigration in the UK, France and Germany. In France and Germany, there was a clear sense that the default was to keep families together, especially if there are children, unless the spouse was a criminal or terrorist. In the UK it is policy to keep families apart unless the UK citizen makes over 18-20K a year (as an example of how different the mindset is).

If you believe in lower immigration, I guess none of this will bother you. But you can't say that this kind of approach to migration, alongside the 'hostile environment' policies, will make the UK overly welcoming to the kinds of migrants it wants and needs.

I sat through a webinar the Association of Labour Providers on this yesterday for my role at work (I'm in agriculture) and just a couple of bullet points from that which have not been mentioned so far with regards to new arrivals wanting to work in the UK after 2020:

The 26.5k minimum salary can be reduced by up to 30% for those under the age of 26 to allow for less experience
The level of education expected is A level equivalent as a minimum
Some of the requirements can be traded off against each other to get the 70 points required
Employers must register as a sponsor (is this going to put businesses off?)
The minimum standard of English required is still TBC

And finally on the settlement scheme for those already here, there have been 3.2 million applications of which 58% have been granted settled status (meaning they have already been here for 5 years or more) and 41% have been given pre settled status (they have been here less than 5 years but are staying). So I don't see huge numbers leaving but from 2021 the numbers arriving are likely to decrease dramatically, which is bad news for farming unless they extend the SAWS scheme beyond the 10k this year.

With regard to the "attracting the brightest and the best" rhetoric - was there something about being members of the EU that prevented us from introducing these amazingly irresistible temptations previously?

It is much less likely that the "brightest and best" from the EU will want to join under these conditions.

I don't think we should get too hung up on whither the 'brightest and the best' from the EU want to come here or not. The point is they can come from anywhere. I'm not bothered about where they come from at all, it's really of no importance as long as they can contribute and do the job.

I find the English exceptionalism of some people quite astounding.
THe UK did brilliantly as the English speaking bridge between the EU and the USA

The point is they can come from anywhere. I'm not bothered about where they come from at all, it's really of no importance as long as they can contribute and do the job.

The point is we have just made it significantly more difficult for people from our neighbouring countries to come, some of whom, as 'the brightest and best' will have no shortage of good offers to go elsewhere.

I admit, when you read the details about various refusals in the press, it is often the case that rules have not been followed (not always, of course” As in turning up one night to a cinema night at a hall of residence for international student for some of the UK’s best universities in London and arresting, detaining and deporting any unlucky enough to have sat a particular language exam. That one is still trundling through the courts and the subject of MP scrutiny and resulted in a big decrease in Indian students coming here 35k to 16k which is only just beginning to recover to 19k. Double trouble* you forget that the brightest and best from the rest of the world have choices too. Canada Australia and New Zealand have all benefitted from the increasingly unwelcoming reputations of the US and U.K.. in terms of attracting International students.

Sorry, failure of my bold discipline...

The point is that one of Brexit's main tenants was to stop FOM and for us to be able to control our own immigration and to have the same regulations for all.

Of course, the language exam thing is a huge scandal. I'm not saying the Home Office is always right, believe me! I have been through the wringer with them myself.

But, I have seen with people I know and in the press stories, sometimes people don't read the rules fully or don't bother to comply with them, and then they are shocked when they are refused. I remember a number of stories about EU nationals being refused for ILR because they wouldn't send in their passports, for example. Now, it's crazy that you have to surrender your passport for months, but if that's the rule, that's the rule.

Basically I would like to see more press attention on how unfair many of the rules are in the first place, because when you write about people not following the rules, people don't care.

The point is that one of Brexit's main tenants was to stop FOM and for us to be able to control our own immigration and to have the same regulations for all.
So less Poles and more Malaysians
but basically the same number over all

The point is that one of Brexit's main tenants was to stop FOM and for us to be able to control our own immigration and to have the same regulations for all

Given farages breaking point poster, don't think the idea was less european white christians and MORE Hindus and Muslims.

Of course, you've also fucked FoM for uk citizens too.

Given that most courses are taught and assessed in english in DK (even the ones that are advertised as Danish only) I come across international masters and PhD students frequently for whom UK was their first choice for study but due to brexit they opted for DK. Also, I know of at least one academic who has in the last few months turned down a position at a russel group uni because of brexit. Now I am aware that I am a internet random so choose not to believe me if you like, but I know there has been at least one preferred choice candidate for a UK uni turned down by someone due to brexit (specifically - he was not confident of collaboration opportunities with EU unis and funding opportunities more limited post brexit). I imagine there are many many others like him.

It's obviously too early to speculate but UK universities are on a downward trend internationally in terms of research impact, with exceptions at the very top ones, which are buffeted by their exceptional reputations.

The very very good but mid ranking universities (that educate most of the british graduates) I expect will suffer most from drop in number of inernational students (financially) and staff (research). Time for a tuition fee rise?

jasjas, I think you'll find the suggestion that we should have an immigration system which is the same for all, no mater where they come from as one of the points in the UKIP manifesto of the time.
I never liked the posters especially the breaking point one, just so unnecessary but the fact is their policy was exactly what is being proposed right now.