Immigration: Sh*t just got real...

[Miljea]

Wonder how Timmy Wetherspoons is frothing today?

Points based??

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421BBC

"Low-skilled workers would not get visas under post-Brexit immigration plans unveiled by the government.

It is urging employers to "move away" from relying on "cheap labour" from Europe and invest in retaining staff and developing automation technology."

And take on the 6m 'economically inactive' 16-64 year olds in Britain.

Good luck with that.

Gosh, that devil is in the detail, innit?

And, separate but important point, who the chuff is clamouring to get into the UK, now, other than southern Asians uniting families? (Which I completely understand).

Holy fuck I had not idea visas were that much 😯

The 10 year visa for those wanting to convert ILR was £1,000

A work visa for somebody coming in from, say, Malaysia
www.gov.uk/tier-2-general
£1,220 per person
and £1,508 to extend it

It's not just visas, is it? It's also paying for NHS care? Never mind that they are paying taxes in this country - the apparently 'have to contribute' according to a HO spokesperson.

Who, in their right minds, with a choice of a move to say, Germany or Denmark, for free, will chose the UK for which they have to pay?

Who, in their right minds, with a choice of a move to say, Germany or Denmark, for free, will chose the UK for which they have to pay?
And if they are in the UK they are stuck in the UK
you get penalised if you leave the country for too long, even on holiday
but if they go to Germany they can travel all over the continent

I seriously think that the draw of the UK will be much, much weaker than mny Brexiters are expecting

A work visa for somebody coming in from, say, Malaysia
www.gov.uk/tier-2-general
£1,220 per person
and £1,508 to extend it

It isn't just that though, there is it is a long complex form that you have to fill in, and if you get one small detail wrong then you find yourself pushed back. Employers are therefore forking out for solicitors. It cost a friend £7000 on top of the visa fee to ensure her son in law, whose tech job came with him, got residency, just to make sure her daughter was not split from her husband. The President of the Royal Society has talked about how hard he found the process - I mean we don't want top world scientists / Nobel prize winners coming here and contributing to science and society (actually since he is a chemist, Cummings is probably not going to give him points as he doesn't fit into his weird mathematical techy oxbridge californian idea of science)

Hostile Environment
Its what the people voted for in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2019
because they don't think it will affect THEM

When it does I will shrug my shoulders and leave them to it I'm afraid

I seriously think that the draw of the UK will be much, much weaker than many Brexiters are expecting

I think that too. I think Davis, Goves and Co really did believe that we held all the cards, and despite trying to blame Theresa May for making a mess of the Brexit negotiations, I think she found that we didn't hold many cards.

The President of the Royal Society has talked about how hard he found the process-I mean we don't want top world scientists/Nobel prize winners coming here and contributing to science and society

"Royal Society responds to No 10 Global Talent visa route announcement for scientists"

27 January 2020
"Responding to the Government's announcement about the Global Talent visa route, Venki Ramakrishnan, President of the Royal Society, said:"

"This is a welcome and attractive visa route that will help encourage talented researchers and specialists from all over the world, and at all stages of their careers, to choose to work in the UK. It sends out a positive message that the UK is committed to remaining open to overseas science talent who would collaborate with our outstanding home-grown minds.What is good for science is good for everybody, and can help tackle important challenges such as climate change or disease."

"The Government has listened to the research community, and this is an important first step in creating the visa system that we need for attracting global scientific talent–one that is welcoming, faster and more flexible, and takes into account the long-term aspirations of scientists and their families."

royalsociety.org/news/2020/01/response-to-global-talent-visa/

"UK aims to woo world’s top scientists with visa scheme"
www.chemistryworld.com/news/uk-aims-to-woo-worlds-top-scientists-with-visa-scheme-starting-next-month/4011123.article

Yes let's say you have a partner and 2 kids and apply for a 5 year work visa

It will cost you £5000 in visa fees and £8000 in healthcare surcharge, so £13,000. That's for five years.

www.gov.uk/tier-2-general

No one has said anything about reducing fees so it's fair to assume EU nationals will face the same costs. Why on earth would people still want to come when it used to be free?

That Global Talent route, I'm trying to understand it. Here's some of the requirements. Already internationally prestigious, supported by certain funders, else on fellowship or above grade. I did not know that any of the UKRCs or NIHR would allow a named Researcher who didn't already have right to work in UK to be on the grant bid. That's interesting news.

Meanwhile junior RAs & PGs are the engines of research.

Medschool
its a sop to the grandees
it will not bring in the bright and the young because of what dreaming has just typed

Its also very racist and sexist as its highly unlikely that undiscovered experts will meet the criteria

Listening, I agree that EU citizens are going to be less tempted to come here as they can easily choose to live and work anywhere in the EU 27 with no visa restrictions however, I think the point is that we will attract people from other parts of the world who should find it easier to come here with less quotas etc. and hopefully a much faster trach visa system. Certainly that's what's implied in the article about research scientists Calvinova linked.

They already have something similar to the global talent route and apparently its undersubscribed.

A lot of this is just theatre.

Listening - why is it racist and sexist?

I seriously think that the draw of the UK will be much, much weaker than many Brexiters are expecting

Isn't that the whole point of Brexit though?

DoubleTrouble
Look at those criteria - how would a bright young postgrad from sub saharan Africa EVER qualify ? Especially if she is from a patriarchal environment ?

Also France and Germany are massively stepping up international recruitment for scientists and researchers so there will be a lot of competition

france-visas.gouv.fr/en_US/web/france-visas/international-talents-and-economic-attractiveness

The French visa costs 99 euros

Dt99 - The Uk needs many more people of much more modest means than top end scientists and engineers, who will be commanding v high salaries.

Who on 26k pa is going to have the money to pay for visas, language tests and medical cover? when they can go to an EU country for either nothing or far less?

The world over is short of HCP's, many countries are actively seeking them out, my DD has been approached to work in Australia after qualifying.... on double the uk salary, also a uk based company has recently done a promotional encouraging students on her course to work in the private sector..... the NHS has done nothing at all, its like they couldn't give a xxxx and are just resting back on their laurals.

Clavinova That was the response to the tier 1 global talent visa, the key words were that it was a first step to meeting the needs of science BUT.

www.crick.ac.uk/about-us/reports-statements/response-to-consultation-on-changes-to-the-uks-immigration-system

"Tier 2 visa route
The predominant visa route that is currently used for recruitment for skilled workers outside of the UK/EEA is the Tier 2 visa route.

We have approximately 1500 employees in the following groups:

600 group leaders, postdocs and PhD students
600 scientific and technical specialists across labs and platforms
330 operational and administrative support staff
The future immigration system needs to be fit-for-purpose, particularly if it includes EEA nationals. The system must be simple, fast and cheap for both individuals and employers.
Of staff directly employed by the Crick in 2018/19:

464 are EEA/Swiss nationals
802 are UK nationals
180 are non-UK/non-EEA/non-Swiss
The Crick currently covers visa costs for our international scientists and their dependents. This includes the immigration health surcharge which facilitates access to the NHS and the immigration skills charge, for roles above PhD level.

The future immigration system needs to be fit-for-purpose, particularly if it includes EEA nationals. The system must be simple, fast and cheap for both individuals and employers.

If the current system is expanded to include individuals from the European Union, this would put increased pressure on the Crick, as we currently offer an enhanced package to ensure individuals are not put off from applying by costs associated with the immigration system. If EEA nationals were treated in the same way as immigrants to the UK from the rest of the world, our modelling shows that the Crick could incur extra annual costs of between £369,226 and £457,226 per year. It would not be possible for the Crick’s budget to support this additional cost. The administrative burden and time involved with securing the right for newly appointed candidates to work in the UK would also be damaging to the Crick."

Thanks for that phrase, the "immigration health surcharge."

Is the £400/year charge per person (if someone wants to bring their family) or per application?

I am imagining £6400 if a family of four wanted to come for 3 yrs, to accompany a leading scientist parent. Would the spouse of the scientist be eligible to work, too?

Is the £400/year charge per person (if someone wants to bring their family) or per application?
Per person
Would the spouse of the scientist be eligible to work, too?
Only if they passed the tests in their own right

Who exactly do you think will be able to afford to come?

I doubt if there are vast numbers in the pool from Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Will people from the USA come flocking? They might I suppose if Trump gets in again.

India - possibly. But when May and Johnson went off to India with great fanfare a year or so back, they came back with their tails between their legs because the Indians wanted more visas and this wasn't what was on offer.

Ah yes, India, doctors
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nhs-doctor-recruitment-india-home-office-visas-rejected-amber-rudd-windrush-a8324831.html

Peregrina, but hasn't the 'new' immigration regulations changed since May was PM?

Look at those criteria - how would a bright young postgrad from sub saharan Africa EVER qualify ?

They come under 'skilled workers'. 20 points for a stem PhD, 10 for non-stem.

I don't think academia will be hugely disadvantaged tbh - the disadvantage will be in U.K. scientists not being able to collaborate, rather than not being able to bring post docs here.

Emilyontmoor - there's enough U.K. post docs and RAs to plug any gap the Crick might have surely?

It's those willing to do unskilled NMW jobs we'll be massively short of. As has been said. Warehouse, abattoir, factory workers, fruit pickers, carers.