Immigration: Sh*t just got real...

[Miljea]

Wonder how Timmy Wetherspoons is frothing today?

Points based??

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421BBC

"Low-skilled workers would not get visas under post-Brexit immigration plans unveiled by the government.

It is urging employers to "move away" from relying on "cheap labour" from Europe and invest in retaining staff and developing automation technology."

And take on the 6m 'economically inactive' 16-64 year olds in Britain.

Good luck with that.

Gosh, that devil is in the detail, innit?

And, separate but important point, who the chuff is clamouring to get into the UK, now, other than southern Asians uniting families? (Which I completely understand).

To me, the Biggie is:

Who, as a highly qualified family person in an internationally regarded line of work, where free-flowing international collaboration is an absolute must- will elect to seek a job in an impoverished, small, isolated, unconnected, cold, damp island huddling on the edge of a chilly ocean? Post Brexit?

Perfect English exceptionalism to imagine otherwise.

titchy Emilyontmoor - there's enough U.K. post docs and RAs to plug any gap the Crick might have surely? A recent survey at the Crick showed that half of respondents felt it is now less likely they would stay in this country when they look for their next role and that included the U.K. nationals (including the one closest to me) Science is international. sciencebusiness.net/news-byte/crick-scientists-unlikely-stay-uk-because-brexit That is why they are already paying the visa and other fees for non EU nationals. The point that the Crick was making is that It is going to add even more to their costs If they have to pay to attract EU nationals.

You want the very best of the world to be researching new treatments for Cancer and other diseases surely?

Because if we just become a place where we train scientists to a certain level only for them to leave in search of better opportunities in genuinely international collaborative environments (as with doctors and other NHS staff now) then British science is no longer going to be able to punch Above its weight as it does now.

Yeah I get that Emily but the U.K. punches significantly above its weight in academia, particularly compared to the rest of the EU (I supposed the 'rest of' in that sentence is now redundant....) and there are a lot of very high calibre scientists here. They come to the crick from the EU because of the Crick - there aren't anywhere near as many opportunities for your high quality Belgian scientist for example - I don't think it's the crick not able to find U.K. talent and them filling a gap.

Not that I agree with Brexit I just think the Crick won't be losing out, whatever it publicly says.

And actually we should thank Boris for listening to his brother and bringing back post study work visas...

Will Crick be able to afford these talented Belgians though? At the moment, it looks as though they won't.

I don't think the UK should be too complacent about its leading role in academia and research. For my corner of academia, 10 years ago you wouldn't want to be anywhere in Europe other than the UK, now there are highly regarded centres in France, Denmark, Ireland and Norway that are expanding. Meanwhile my department in the UK may be completely screwed if EU student revenue and funding drops off dramatically.

If EU students have to follow the same student visa rules as currently exist for other countries, those numbers will plummet (not to mention if they have to pay international rather than home fees).

I agree, I was about to say something similar to the above post, although relating a friend's experience rather than my own.

For me the sad thing is that these departments, can take years to build up and gain their reputations, but they can be destroyed much more rapidly.

I don't think this is something that Thatcher would have done - having been a scientist herself she appreciated science much more. But then Thatcher promoted the Single Market.

So is Brexit Britain going to be more or less welcoming to foreign scientists than we could have been before Brexit? Because the Brexit government (and their cheerleaders) appear to be simultaneously trumpeting the suppressive effect that their new extra-hostile measures will have on immigrants, and yet promising that [precisely the sort of immigrants who would have a choice of destination] will be entirely undiscouraged by the aforementioned extra-hostile measures in continuing to come here in as many numbers as we desire.

I don't see how it could be more welcoming, everything they are touting already exists in some form. There are a number of things that can make the UK less appealing so the question is whether they can compensate for that somehow.

I don't see how it could be more welcoming

Indeed so, but we're being fogged by an inkcloud which attempts (very unconvincingly) to give the impression of special NewBrexitatiousWelcomingness™ for particular classes of acceptable immigrants.

Titchy The strength of U.K. Science in the EU was not just access to Horizon, it was also being part of a whole range of collaborative and regulatory networks that helped to make it a level playing field. That enabled us to punch above their weight. You are ignoring the fact that whilst the Crick is the largest biomedical research organisation in one place in Europe it is not the largest in Europe and underestimating the strength of Science elsewhere in Europe especially the Netherlands and Germany where young scientists I know have gone. Horizon projects have already been moving back to Europe with their researchers and the U.K. removed from collaboration on new ones.

You are making your assumptions in the face of what science and academia are saying and the trends already seen. Expert?

A recent survey at the Crick showed that half of respondents felt it is now less likely they would stay in this country when they look for their next role and that included the U.K. nationals

Not that 'recent' - November 2018 - and still part of the 'Stop Brexit' propaganda. Currently on the Crick website; "We haven’t seen any reduction in the number of talented international researchers wanting to come here."

"January 27, 2020 Expert reaction to announcement about a new Global Talent visa scheme"

Positive endorsements from the University of Cambridge, the Royal Society, Universities UK, CaSE [Council for Advancement and Support of Education], the Royal Statistical Society, the Royal Society of Engineering, Wellcome, the Association of Medical Research Charities, the Academy of Medical Sciences, UK Research and Innovation;
www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-announcement-about-a-new-global-talent-visa-scheme/

Some more positives:
"Today’s changes introduce a fourth route covering two types of employees at UK universities and research institutions."

"The first is post-doctoral researchers: those at an early stage of their academic career, having just gained their PhD.The second is specialist technologist roles."

"This latter group is the most significant, and is a group which the sector has previously identified as being particularly vulnerable to being shut out under a post-Brexit immigration system." ...

"This new category will provide the research sector considerable freedom to recruit the researchers and specialists it needs via the medium of research grant funding, without day-to-day Home Office scrutiny.This is hugely significant, given the context of the current immigration system, but it should not be interpreted as a route which will allow unregulated migration."
www.freemovement.org.uk/new-global-talent-visa/

"Brunel backs new Global Talent visa for attracting researchers"

Global Talent visa: At a glance -

-- The Global Talent visa will be open to people who work in a qualifying field and have been endorsed by a recognised UK body.

-- There is no cap on the number awarded.

-- It ensures dependents have full access to the labour market.

-- It preserves Tier 1’s flexibility of not requiring an individual to hold an offer of employment before arriving, or tying them to one specific job.

-- It provide an accelerated path to settlement for all scientists and researchers who are endorsed on the route.

-- There will be an exemption from absence rules for researchers, and their dependants, where they are required overseas for work-related purposes, ensuring they are not penalised when they apply for settlement.

-- Managed by UK Research and Innovation (UKRI).

www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/Brunel-backs-new-Global-Talent-visa-for-attracting-researchers

The whole point of Brexit's anti immigration was that they were anti FOM but not immigration per say. They want to have a level playing field for anyone from anywhere in the world that was always the point and one I tried to make again and again on these threads when the accusation of racism cropped up. As far as I can see the new system should be simpler than before and it does reduce the income threshold.
The whole point of it now should be to be welcoming rather than the previous principle that tried to discourage immigrantion.

"X institute backs Talent Visa" And bears shit in the woods. WTF else would they say? It would be really weird if higher ed and research institutions didn't support visas for talented researchers.

And was any of this prevented by membership of the EU?

EU academics have a choice of countries to go to without much admin hassle. Those from non-EU countries can, if they go to the EU, benefit from FOM, the guarantee of continued collaboration on joint EU-funded projects and, often, lower visa and healthcare costs.
And the concept of how "welcoming" the UK is goes beyond financial considerations. EU academics have been leaving since the referendum and moving on with accounts of their experiences, concerns, etc. Windrush has left its mark.

The UK has come out of the last 5 or so years with a severely battered reputation in many respects and the current gvmt is not helping. If they renege on the WA, that will only get far worse in terms of trust.

Current strikes in UK universities are being closely followed by many French academics trying to resist Macron's latest measures to "reform" HE. The undermining of pension and workers' rights in UK universities is often cited (not always 100% accurately, but it is still cited) in France as an example of a highly deregulated working environment overly driven by economic concerns and managed by outsiders who are paid a fortune to cut corners on quality and lower others' salaries.

English universities receive so much income from fees compared to those in some other countries and yet they have gone from employing tenured academics to ad hoc/zero hours contracts and a gutted pensions scheme.

The working environment is not as attractive as it once was.

Oh how wonderful these links are - they are invariably silent about the cost of these visas. Those people who had to pay for visas before won't be deterred, those who used to come without needing a visa will probably think twice.

For a lot of people who voted Leave they were most definitely anti-immigration, especially anti Muslim immigration, and really neither knew nor cared about level playing fields.

And the concept of how "welcoming" the UK is goes beyond financial considerations.

A three year fast track route to indefinite leave to remain seems pretty welcoming to me.

A three year fast track route to indefinite leave to remain seems pretty welcoming to me.

It might seem more so if it wasn't being proposed by a regime responsible for the Windrush scandal and which is reportedly seeking ways to "get around" its binding international agreements, with potentially devastating consequences for many.
The question of trust is relevant here.

Some academics and researchers considering a move to the UK might not be concerned about these issues, deem them any worse than their current situation or be aware of them.
Some, though, might well be put off, especially "the brightest and best" who have more choice as to where they take their talent.

Stats from HESA - the number of EU academic staff has increased since the referendum - even if they are moving from one UK university to another more frequently:

2017/2018
"Of academic staff with known nationality, 18%, or 35,920, had an EU (excluding the UK) nationality, and 13% had a non-EU nationality." Both proportions increased by 1 percentage point compared with 2015/16 figures. "Amongst non-academic staff with known nationality, just 6% had an EU (excluding the UK) nationality, and 4% had a non-EU nationality.These proportions were the same as in 2015/16."

www.hesa.ac.uk/news/18-01-2018/sfr248-higher-education-staff-statistics

Nationality of staff:
In 2018/19, among academic staff with known nationality, 18%, or 38,080, had an EU (excluding the UK) nationality, and 14% had a non-EU nationality.
•For non-academic staff with known nationality, 7% had an EU (excluding the UK) nationality, and 4% had a non-EU nationality.

www.hesa.ac.uk/news/23-01-2020/sb256-higher-education-staff-statistics

What relevance do 2017/2018 stats have now? Now we have Johnson as PM and a totally incompetent person in charge of the Home Office, who knows what the situation is?

Meanwhile, some of us speak as we find, and know EU staff leaving scientific research posts or leaving the NHS.

Current strikes in UK universities are being closely followed by many French academics trying to resist Macron's latest measures to "reform" HE.

Is France really in the market for attracting top global talent? (2017)

"While most senior academics in France enjoy “almost total job security” thanks to their “lifetime positions,” professors are significantly underpaid compared with those in Britain, Germany and the United States, according to a new study by Johannes Angermuller, professor of discourse at the University of Warwick, published in the journal Higher Education."

"Comparing publicly available salary scales, Angermuller highlights a huge pay deficit faced by French university professors in comparison with their international peers."

the “relative absence of an inter-institutional job market,” thanks to a job-for-life culture, means there is little appetite to lure researchers from rival institutions on better terms, the study adds.

“In the absence of salary gaps between [institutions], which may force decision makers to take candidates from outside more seriously, decision makers tend to stick with local and well-connected candidates,” it explains.

www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/03/31/professors-france-enjoy-job-security-have-low-salaries

The THE reported on other HESA statistics in Nov 2019. There was movement in and out by EU staff, apparently.

here

The number of European Union academics leaving the UK for a job in an overseas university climbed by almost half after the Brexit referendum.

According to previously unseen Higher Education Statistics Agency figures on the outflow of staff from the UK by nationality, about 500 academics from other EU countries moved to a job at a university abroad in the year to December 2017, up from 340 in the year before the Brexit vote.

HESA report here: www.ucea.ac.uk/library/publications/he-workforce-report-2019/

It also, obviously, refers to concerns about future recruitment and retention.
If the aim was to ease out EU staff and increase non-EU ones and if non-EU researchers move to the UK, then maybe Brexit will be deemed a success by some.

Clavinova
That article is about French university professors, not researchers in a CNRS/CEA type institute, which continue to attract a lot of international academics.

You can't compare UK HE to French HE because of the complexity of the latter, with Grandes Écoles, CNRS, universities and a whole range of research structures.

But French academics are certainly underpaid. Their purchasing power has plummeted in the last 20 years and their working conditions have deteriorated at the same time. Macron's plan is to introduce new ways of attracting researchers by making most people's conditions worse and thus freeing up money to try and draw in a happy few.

I suspect EU researchers leaving the UK are not moving to France, but looking at Germany, Scandinavia, NL and Switzerland (the latter pays huge salaries).

I'm not so sure that paying a surcharge is that much of a deterrent to some migrants - Germans pay a lot for their healthcare (they probably get more but that is a different thread), so actually the yearly charge looks quite reasonable in comparison.