Brexit - the Good, the Bad and hopefully not the Ugly

[Bearbehind]

Following on the thread about how we will measure the successes or failures of Brexit, I’m just leaving this one here for people to record the successes and failures as they occur / as they see them

All welcome if you discuss the subject of the thread - this isn’t a thread for moaning about the fact Brexit is happening! 😁

There also won't be a feel good factor from Brexit.

The last bit of that post is ridiculous.

Democracy doesnt end after an election/referendum

Democracy is the delivery of election and referendum results. Government is held to account by an election. If voters don't like what they have since the previous election they can vote out their constiuent MPs.

Successes/Failures cannot be discussed in isolation of all the promises/claims made over the last 4 years

OP was searching for what people thought were perceived successes or failures and I think expectations too. Brexit has not been in place long enough to quote actual data as it has not happened yet.

@KenDodd I’m really sorry to hear about your job, and I completely understand why you want to blame leavers for the mess we are in, especially when lots of them are seemingly only happy that we are Brexiting as they get to ‘own the libs’ or laugh at ‘remainer tears.’ Personally, I want to focus more on calling out those who created the narrative especially as the lying and misinformation is continuing.

Mystery you’re spending a lot of time yourself rehashing the old democracy argument. Are you happy with the government’s handling of Brexit so far, such as the failure to consult business in good time (as per Peter Foster’s most recent twitter thread?) I’d like to see leavers start holding the government they elected to account wrt making Brexit a success or otherwise. Like acknowledging Boris is lying when he says no declarations or checks on goods from GB - NI when we all know that we will be in breach of the treaty if we don’t have them. Or writing to their MP to get them to push for an extension to transition as 11 months is an impossible timeframe and ultimately, why shouldn’t we use all the available time we have?

If everyone who lost a vote had to shut up we would never have a second referendum on the EU

Shut up is not the correct interpretation I think. Losers consent until the next vote takes place is better. Possible that people have changed their minds on Bexit by the time next election takes place. Bear's point was that repeating the same anti-brexit arguments that so far have lost twice does not achieve a lot.

No, democracy requires opposition.

The same points got repeated again and again from 1975, blatant hypocrisy ans thoroughly anti democratic

If people voted because they think EU commissioners can dictate to them they are poorly informed

People vote on what they percieve as opposed to extensive research on internet in libaries, etc. Only qualification to vote is to be over voting age and to turn up at the polling station.

We never had uncontrolled immigration

Again it is perception.

WW2 ended in 1945

Correct.

There also won't be a feel good factor from Brexit

As Perigina points out "that is just your opinion"

The last bit of that post is ridiculous

In your eyes maybe, but I am sure that such factors influenced voters.

I don't think you understand democracy mystery. You are using the word as a cover for "you lost, we won, shut up". Opposition MPs are democratically elected their job is to hold the government accountable between elections. The UK doesnt turn into a dictatorship after an election/referendum.

Are you happy with the government’s handling of Brexit so far, such as the failure to consult business in good time (as per Peter Foster’s most recent twitter thread?)

Brexit is happening which is first success for me.

Businesses should by now have made themselves familiar with WTO in the event a no deal occurs. As the exact terms of the new trade deal are not known, what exactly is the government to with businesses on?

That's why I think the intent of Article 50 was to have such discussions on the future relationship before UK left the EU. That way businesses both in the EU and the UK would be much better prepared for the day after Bexit happens.

However, if the intent of Article 50 was to have a two year Withdrawal process (or longer) and potentially several years of trade talks thereafter, whilst at the same time businesses sit in limbo for years, then it is a poorly thought out Article. Such approach can only be damaging to businesses both in EU and UK.

People can vote if they believed this stuff.

Its also allowed to say that their reasons were wrong.

EU businesses will be just fine continuing to operate within the biggest trading bloc in the world. Its British businesses that will be battling more red tape and increased costs. It's what you voted for after all, to make life harder for businesses and individuals.

Please don't trouble to quote me Mystery.

You are hung up on WW2. I am one of the older posters on MN and I was born post War. My MIL who is still alive and became old enough during the War to do war work, voted Remain.

You remind me of a teacher I had in the late 50s - early 60s who banged on and on about the Empire. Yet we would go home and see or hear the news of another colony gaining independence and we knew that the Empire he went on about was rapidly passing into history.

Webster's Definition of democracy

1a: government by the people especially : rule of the majority

b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

2: a political unit that has a democratic government

Opposition MPs are democratically elected their job is to hold the government accountable between elections

Exactly - between elections.

The UK doesnt turn into a dictatorship after an election/referendum

If government has a big enough majority then it can be akin to dictatorship.

So what then is the opinion on the Ceramics industry needing a trade deal with the EU to continue with the 57% of the business they currently do with them, but where Liz Truss has burbled on about how a trade deal might at some future date be done with the USA? Is that a success?

I can think of one indirect benefit - those firms which are strong enough to survive will have to take on staff to deal with the customs paperwork. However I suspect that smaller firms will just go to the wall.

Another benefit - Anne Widdicombe, Anunziata Rees-Mogg, Daniel Hannan, are out of jobs on Saturday. So is Farage but he will still get a pension (as will Hannan.)

People can vote if they believed this stuff

Yes

Its also allowed to say that their reasons were wrong

Yes, but no obligation for people to change their vote after hearing from those that think they know better.

EU businesses will be just fine continuing to operate within the biggest trading bloc in the world. Its British businesses that will be battling more red tape and increased costs

It will effect those EU businesses that export to the UK as well.

It's what you voted for after all, to make life harder for businesses and individuals

Who said that? Plan is for UK to have a FTA with EU to reduce formalities, red tapes, etc.

Who knows what the plan is? Has Cummings told Johnson yet?

Lot of contradictions on your idea of democracy mystery.

I’d like to see leavers start holding the government they elected to account wrt making Brexit a success or otherwise

Bit early as Brexit has not started yet. First step is 31 Jan 2020, but it is not until 31st December 2020 that UK is fully out of the UK and contributions to the EU end. Time needs to pass to people can look at actual post brexit data.

Like acknowledging Boris is lying when he says no declarations or checks on goods from GB - NI when we all know that we will be in breach of the treaty if we don’t have them

Can't remember who posted, but remember someone expressing the view that UK had given up on NI. Varadker has said that checks will be required, but is that not an EU and Ireland issue? Remember that once UK leaves the EU it is not bound by its border controls unless they are referenced in a new trade deal (assuming a deal happens)

Or writing to their MP to get them to push for an extension to transition as 11 months is an impossible timeframe and ultimately, why shouldn’t we use all the available time we have?

11 months seem tight unless the plan is to make mods to the existing treaties rather then re-draft from scratch. Brexit has to be brought to a conclusion so permanent extensions don't help and every extra month costs the UK around a Billion.

Whatever the plan is for business, it's guaranteed not to be better, it cannot be the same as before (because cakeism), so qed it must be worse. It's not difficult to understand objectively, subjectively however.........

Lot of contradictions on your idea of democracy mystery

But not listed. Hmmm...

An FTA with the EU adds red tape and formalities.

I didnt think lists or in depth reasoning was a brexiteer strong point. Soundbites usually do.

Wasn't the whole idea to redraft from scratch rather than modify, or accept current treaties wholesale? Take back control, you know.

Wasn't the whole idea to redraft from scratch rather than modify, or accept current treaties wholesale? Take back control, you know

UK has traded with EU since 1973 so should be well versed now in regulations for trade in terms of standards. Deal or no deal will still require goods exported to the EU from the UK to be in alignment. So why start from scratch. If a new deal is made surely there will be reference to existing standards.