How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

Remainer arguments like this don't need to change when they are the truth

Not the truth in the eyes of those who voted leave. Remainers have presented what they consider to be facts since 2016, but it made no difference. Leave supporters did not change their minds and Johnson stormed the election by promising to deliver Brexit.

People don't like being told they were lied to

If people had concluded they were lied to why did they not change their minds in 2019?

The red bus is thought to be the clincher, but I don’t think so. Leavers I know based their vote on;

Immigration
Dislike of Brussels and the EU
National pride
WWII

If you could only take a step back and look at yourselves "We are brilliant/they are stupid " "One day they will see we are right". You all sound like each other.

Bellin, the governments own brexit white paper stated sovereignty was never lost. If people are presented with this and still argue that sovereignty was lost what suitable conclusion would you like me to make?

A healthy democracy is dependent on an informed electorate

Another

I know better

Statement.

Voting only has two requirements.

To be over voting age and turning up at the polling station.

One thing Brexit has clarified is that the UK is a much more racist country that people freely admit to. Loosing FOM will go down in history as one of the failures of UK society.

Mystery: Ghost was talking about a 'healthy democracy', not about the entitlement to vote.

the governments own brexit white paper stated sovereignty was never lost

What makes you think that voters spend time on the internet or in libraries researching such papers before they vote? Vote will be based on l;

Statements made in media
Arguments presented in programmes such as QT
Live debates on TV
Personal opinion of leaders
Previous voting habits

There seems to be a huge amount of deliberate mis-reading on this thread.

They didnt need to read the white paper it was reported in the press (although probably not the predominantly pro brexit press)

Mystery: Ghost was talking about a 'healthy democracy', not about the entitlement to vote

A healthy democracy is majority vote being actioned by government. Remain campaign had huge advantage over leave as Cameron was able to spend public money on sending booklets to every household in the UK. Leave could not do that.

Also remain campaign forecast that a vote to leave, even before anything happening, would result in between 500,000 and 800,000 job losses. It never happened. In fact the reverse happens and unemployment decreased.

GDP was supposed to plummet. That did not happen either.

Make whatever conclusion you like. I agree with you on the point. But we all need a better way of talking about this. Because most people are utterly turned off by it and don't believe anyone anymore. The election results didn't demonstrate a joy about Brexit or a cheerful bending over to get shafted: they demonstrated a "let's get to the next fucking stage and stop replaying the same old arguments ".

Bear - I'd like to return to your 'make the most of' it argument. Here's some proposed legislation in Turkey which effectively legitimises child marriage and statutory rape. Women's Groups are opposing it at present. If the bill passes into law, should they then stop arguing about it and 'make the most' of it'?

As ever you are completely missing the point arkadas

The legislation you linked to hasn’t been passed yet, Brexit legislation has.

There’s a time to oppose things then there’s a time to stop bleating about what you’ve failed to achieve and look to manage the consequences

Bear and I agree on very little. But it seems we agree on this.

As you well know bellin people were presented with facts but don't care. Like sovereignty never being lost, like being able to control immigration. Remainer arguments like this don't need to change when they are the truth. People don't like being told they were lied to so they double down, get angry and accuse the people presenting facts of calling them stupid.

FFS - it’s like bloody Groundhog Day every day with some of you 🤔

One thing Brexit has clarified is that the UK is a much more racist country that people freely admit to

Tabloids blamed everything on immigration in the run up to the referendum.

Loosing FOM will go down in history as one of the failures of UK society

Foreigners can still enter the UK, but more checks required. I have worked in many countries around there Workd, mostly outside the EU. Visa and work permit can take time to process, but I have never been refused.

It’s very difficult to plan for managing Brexit when the government are putting out conflicting messages. One of the Irish ministers has said again this morning that there will be checks on the border. Boris is saying there won’t?

Blaming the opposition when there isn't a level playing field is a cop out.

What does this even mean?

If the playing field wasn’t level that was entirely the fault of the opposition

If they’d had clear direction on Brexit and policies that made them electable the result could have be very different

It’s very telling that some of you completely fail to see the significance of Labours broadband policy

It’s not that policy per se, it’s the fact that Labour were so out of touch they thought it mattered to enough people and they’d fall for such a ridiculous policy

It simply had the effect of proving to many that JC is detached from reality and thus any policy, particularly those about Brexit, is likely to be pie in the sky

Im waiting to move on I just need the winners to present what brexit looks like with 6 days to go..

Yes, mystery the tabloids used immigration but some people think the media held no sway over voters...

The legislation you linked to hasn’t been passed yet, Brexit legislation has.
There’s a time to oppose things then there’s a time to stop bleating about what you’ve failed to achieve and look to manage the consequences
So, if that legislation is passed in Turkey, they should 'stop bleating about it' and 'manage the consequences' whatever that means.
Actually, I think you are missing the point.
Holding the Brexiteers (which includes those in government now) to account on their promises is not 'bleating'. That's such a dismissive word, designed to make people STFU.

and the leave vote had a huge advantage in that it had 41 years of a campaign behind it along with decades of negative and inaccurate reporting on the EU from much of the press.

It also had an advantage that the same press actively campaigned for Brexit throughout 2016.

Bear, the Tories don't have a clear direction on brexit other than another baseless slogan (getting it done). You've been sold a pup if you think this thing is getting put to bed anytime soon.

Tabloids blamed everything on immigration in the run up to the referendum.
And the voters lapped it up. You would no doubt call that 'healthy democracy', Mystery.

Im waiting to move on I just need the winners to present what brexit looks like with 6 days to go..
This is what I'm looking forward to, as well. After all, this election was fought on getting Brexit done and ending uncertainty. Let's have certainty! Six days to go!

Holding the Brexiteers (which includes those in government now) to account on their promises is not 'bleating'

This thread was about how we can measure success and hold people to account

All many of you have done is whinge about the fact it’s happening and how stupid those who voted for it are

They are not the same thing

Bear, I told you what may successes would be - independent scotland and united Ireland.

Given that leavers are generally unionists if the above comes to pass that would be quite a brexit fuck up wouldn't it? And a failure in their eyes. It was the EU that was supposed to collapse not the UK.