How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

And equating Brexit to rape is ridiculous.

Brexit is a polarising issue by it's very nature and when the UK likely breaks up as a result it will continue to be so.

Even prepping is polarising because some leavers think it is ridiculous scaremongering that causes shortages.

People can put their fingers in their ears all they want but it ain't gonna change reality.

Therefore, I think the only measure we can use is one that looks at the campaign promises they made/the outcomes of those promises

When has any government delivered its manifesto in full? Doing well to get 3 out of 10 of any promises made.

And equating Brexit to rape is ridiculous.
Do you ever bother to properly read anything, bellini, or do you just wade in? I am not comparing Brexit to rape FFS. I am comparing blind acceptance to non-acceptance. We are told that now that Brexit has received royal assent we need to 'make the most of it'. My point it, we can continue to hold people to account and to protest when they don't come up with the goods..
I didn't really want to invoke the sufragettes, but really, where would we all be now, if they'd 'made the most of' the law as it stood?

@MysteryTripAgain wasn't twisting the figures, it was part of the point that I made, 65 percent of Labour voters voted to remain, whilst something like 35 percent of Tories did. Yet Corbyn keeps getting more of the blame for Brexit than Cameron.

Not twisting the figures, accurate, you said it was an incorrect statement. It wasn't.

I'm embarrassed for you.

I did read it properly. And talking about "blind acceptance " complying with rape enabling legislation is what your post is about.

We are told that now that Brexit has received royal assent we need to 'make the most of it'
Who's telling you that?

When has any government delivered its manifesto in full? Doing well to get 3 out of 10 of any promises made.
You keep confusing elections with the referendums. No-one went into the referendum with a manifesto.

What Leave groups did was campaign using loads of promises and some anti-immigrant posters and rhetoric to sway the public into voting for something that will not be easily reversible. I do remember listening to all these promises at the time, knowing that the people making them did not have the authority to do so - a fact that went largely unchallenged on mainstream media. Nevertheless, many people believed those lies, like this Sunderland voter, and voted accordingly. The liars now need to deliver.

Read the thread, Bellini. Not every post is about you.

If we are surviving or thriving in 10 years time

"People can put their fingers in their ears all they want but it ain't gonna change reality."
Well, exactly @GhostofFrankGrimes . We are leaving. You can put your fingers in your ears and go on and on about buses, and lies, and stupid old Northerners (and all the other tedious nonsense I've seen rehashed on here) but we are leaving. I'm not saying you should lie back and thing if England, I'm saying you need to find new arguments. Because the old ones have failed and rehashing them just puts people off. People who are bored shitless of this.

"Read the thread, Bellini. Not every post is about you."
Really, I didn't know that.

what do we look for to measure success or failure as we move to tbe next stage. Reasonable question

Of course it's a reasonable question, but the problem is what you use as the criteria for judging success.

If your objective is a Minford-style bonfire of heavy and manufacturing industry, then using economic criteria (such as unemployment levels) to measure success makes no sense.

Likewise if lowering immigration is your criteria, and you are prepared to accept economic damage to achieve this, then you will judge Brexit successful if immigration falls, even if economic harm occurs.

As I said earlier "we don't know what the government really wants from Brexit, so it's hard to measure success against any formal policy objectives". Actually it's worse than that: the government doesn't really know what it wants.

As for free broadband this was a stupid (though deliverable, and cheap compared to Brexit) manifesto promise that only people with an absolute obsession about Corbyn still want to discuss. Many a stupid policy has been put forward in a manifesto; why are you fixating on this one?

We are told that now that Brexit has received royal assent we need to 'make the most of it' Who's telling you that?

Well, Bear has said that on numerous occasions. in fact she said she felt "sorrow" for those who cannot.........

I didn't read that post as Brexit = Rape.... just that bad policy should be opposed and not just blindly accepted.

But of course, brexit is happening, no one is disputing that.

65 percent of Labour voters voted to remain

So why did they get hammered in the 2019 election. They lost 60 seats compared to 2017.

My parents are from mining village and have voted labour all their lives until 2019. However, they voted leave in 2016.

Labour never had a chance in 2019. Corbyn had no clear Brexit policy and was trying to be half in and half out to reflect that labour voters were split on leaving the EU. If two thirds of labour are remain supporters why did labour not make it clear they were a remain party?

The broadband thing wasn't the big policy on which the election swung though

blaming that is like saying that the tories promise to give ofsted more power was the thing that won them the vote.

As you well know bellin people were presented with facts but don't care. Like sovereignty never being lost, like being able to control immigration. Remainer arguments like this don't need to change when they are the truth. People don't like being told they were lied to so they double down, get angry and accuse the people presenting facts of calling them stupid.

The problem is brexit has become quasi religion. Of course people are entitled to believe brexit is great. Just like people are entitled to believe the earth is flat and climate change doesn't exist.

Do you think the Government is going to share its plan for the post Brexit UK ? You would think that with 5 days to go there would be some sort of plan ? possibly even just a wish list.
All we seem to be getting is conflicting messages , closely aligned , no alignment etc.
There doesn't seem to be any end to the uncertainty, this must make things very difficult for businesses or those looking to secure investment.

"Many a stupid policy has been put forward in a manifesto; why are you fixating on this one?"
Because of the fixation on the bus. That symbolised lazy lies and rightly got referred to all the time. The Tories and Brexit should have been ripe for the taking and all HM Opposition could come up with was its own version of the bus. Opposition must do better. And it won't if it ignores the fact that it can't oppose effectively.

Boris continues to come out with statements like this but no policy or information as to how it is to be achieved.

Boris Johnson has said Britain will become a "global, trail-blazing country" after Brexit and that he will "look ahead with confidence".

That's my point @GhostofFrankGrimes . And all we're seeing on this thread is the same old same old. With a pinch of grumpiness at people like me for having tbe temerity to suggest it's failed.

"So why did they get hammered in the 2017 election". Voters is different to seats as you said. I analysed the reasons why the seats were lost above.

The bus and broadband are false equivalence. The bus was the key prop for leave and fed the idea that money was wasted on the EU and millions could be spent on public services instead. The broadband thing was simply used as a stick to beat Labour with. In this country the left arent allowed to spend tax payers but the right can piss billions up the wall on brexit, no questions asked.

Good grief.

A healthy democracy is dependent on an informed electorate. If liars see they can get away with it they will continue to do so long after brexit.

Blaming the opposition when there isn't a level playing field is a cop out. Comforting lies trump inconvenient truths.